Attack Iran Plans Go Wry Thanks To Afghanistan Disasters

The UN is having its annual meetings and it is very odd how the US continues to pretend to be the power center while China increasingly calls all the shots.  Afghanistan is also in the news with the release of a report that was not classified but was not for news consumption.  This report from our military is all about how we can ‘win’ in Afghanistan by doing the same stupid things the Russians did there as well as all the dumb things we did in Vietnam.  Why we want to do these things baffles me.  But then, our trade deficit is also very mysterious.


Here is just a small bit of the Pentagon report about the Afghan war.  Of course, they feel that if we throw more money and soldiers at this problem, we will win.  Recognition of the futility of all this is vanishingly small.   Barbara Tuchman‘s famous book, The march of folly: from Troy to Vietnam tells the same story over and over again: how people were warned not to go into a war, how they were warned of the consequences of war, and how they get entangled in a war and can’t disengage and how these wars end.


For example, the US wars and struggles for power with Britain from 1776-1870 meant that in WWI and WWII, there were many Americans were very unenthusiastic about supporting Britain.  The consequences of the American uprising against the Crown was profound: the US revolution was exported to the US ally in France and it nearly swept all of Europe.  The US enabled Napoleon by giving him money for the Louisiana Purchase, for example.  The US and England have been singing from the same playbook for half  a century now.  But this isn’t all so very good.


True, England half-heartedly yielded to Irish-American demands to quit part of Ireland but not all of Ireland, not by a long shot.  And the English pirate islands have been busy destroying the US banking system.  The US has some very severe problems.  The main one, as far as I am concerned, is how we picked up all the messy pieces of the former British Empire and are now destroying ourselves financially as well as morally, trying to keep it under control.  Just as the collapse of the French Empire nearly destroyed the US when we decided to rule Vietnam, so it is again, in the British Protectorates we are trying to control in Muslim lands.


Dem to White House: Keep focus on Afghanistan | Antiwar Newswire

A letter sent Tuesday to the White House from Rep. Ike Skelton of Missouri says the Obama administration cannot be distracted from its mission of defeating the Taliban to protect the U.S. from al-Qaida.


“This leads me to urge you to waste no time in providing a clear direction to our commanders and civilian leaders, along with the resources necessary to achieve their mission,” Skelton wrote to President Barack Obama in a letter obtained by The Associated Press.


Warning of the lessons of history, Skelton added: “The last administration allowed itself to be distracted from the fight forced on us in Afghanistan by the fight it chose in Iraq. I believe that this was a strategic mistake, robbing the war in Afghanistan of the necessary resources and resulting in an approach of ‘half-ass it and hope.’ We cannot afford to continue that policy.”


At the UN, Obama wanted desperately for China to help us attack Iran.  Already, the US has cut a deal with Russia; we won’t put up attack missiles on the borders of Russia if Russia tosses Iran to the wolves of war.  Now, we have to persuade China to do the same.  Israel needs this very badly.  So the US is now going to give what to China?


China’s leader, Hu, already told the US we have to be nice or else.  So the price is obvious: the US can join Israel in ravaging Iran ONLY if the US lets China ravage the US in world trade.  This is a totally lousy deal. But one beloved by every Zionist on earth.


Both the GOP and DNC are warmongering operations.  Before the US invaded Iraq, US interest in wrangling with the Afghanis faded fast. Once the US took over Kabul, public support of this war faded in to the background.  The neocons had to pretend that Saddam had nuclear bombs in order to rouse interest in attacking Iraq.  Which proved to be a total disaster.


The US entered Afghanistan so we could go after bin Laden.  He got away and makes fun of us on a regular basis.  There is an immense movement in the left and other areas to pretend he doesn’t even exist.  So we can’t talk about him. But frankly, he is one of the greater revolutionary leaders on earth.  His continuing existence proves this.  Leaving bin Laden out of the historical narrative may smooth the way for a unified conspiracy theory of the Universe but it is cheating.  Not everything is duped.  Certainly, bin Laden’s universe is very, very real.  The forces he has tapped are very, very real.  His strategy is very powerful and is working like a charm.


One of his goals was to discredit all the existing Muslim monarchies and rulers.  He is wildly successful in this.  His other strategy was to lure the US into a trap in Afghanistan.  This has been immensely successful.  Pretending he doesn’t exist may be fun for armchair conspiracy theorists. But in the real world, he is a very real ideological force which should not be underestimated.


Every move we make in Afghanistan has made things worse.  As bin Laden hoped and prayed.  Here is the memo from General Mc Crystall:

Screen shot 2009-09-23 at 3.37.58 PM

Screen shot 2009-09-23 at 11.56.21 AM


This is a continuous war that isn’t just ‘not-seasonal’ but worse: it is epic.  Instead of fighting for one year or ten years or even 100 years, this is a location that believes in eternal wars.  That is, if anyone ever invades at any time, they will be fought tooth and nail until they leave.  If this takes one year of 1,000 years is immaterial.


The Afghanis are very, very poor.  All they have is their pride, their honor and their history.  This history is held very dear for it is a bloody history.  It is transmitted to each generation via a river of blood.  The more the people bleed, the deeper they are seeped in their own history.  I know many people who are very flighty.  They don’t care about the past or even the future.  They view the world as a place they can pick and choose where they live and what they do.  So they have no deep roots to the point, if something displeases them, they pick up and depart for whatever reason.


We are not fighting these sorts of people in Afghanistan.  Anyone who isn’t able or capable of living in immense difficulties, left long ago. The stubborn core of the people is like the rocky hills and steep valleys of Afghanistan.  They will not yield to anyone any more than the ancient Swiss would kneel to any king or duke.  The best we can hope for is to hire these fighters to be our mercenary armies.  But we can’t hire them to attack their own people.  They will happily fight elsewhere.  But not each other, in the pay of foreign powers.


Or rather, the ones that DO hire themselves out to attack fellow Afghanis are cynical and dangerous and are basically bandits or outlaws.  The warlords are looters and we used them as allies and they are now looting the US using Afghanistan as their main venue for looting.  This looting is very costly and is one major reason why the US is misspending a trillion dollars trying to buy the loyalty the worst of the worst in Iraq and Afghanistan.


Screen shot 2009-09-23 at 12.18.44 PM


The arrogance here is astonishing!  The Afghanis are an audience?  What is this bloody theater they are in?  Are they onlookers???  This is totally insane.  They are not an audience unless we see Hamlet being played by the people in the seats, all of them drinking poison or running each other through with swords!


Are they leverage?  This makes no sense at all.  As for ‘are they objectives’….this is INHUMAN.  They are not targets.  That is what an ‘objective’ is.  They are the PEOPLE who live in Afghanistan.  They can’t be citizens since they don’t have  a country, they are like the Palestinians: an occupied land ruled by unelected outsiders who used physical force to invade and hold land.


Any Afghani humans who object to all this are viewed as targets to be killed.  People fighting for their beliefs, culture or society are seen as ‘objectives’ by alien invaders who have no idea at all, what is going on.  These alien Americans want to CONTROL Afghanistan so it operates as part of our empire.  We don’t give a hoot about the people, what they want or who they are.  They are in the way, as far as we are concerned.  Now, on to the other bloody colonization project:


Obama Pivots in His Mideast Peace Bid –

For Mr. Obama, Tuesday was a day in which he saw firsthand the difficulty of transferring the enormous good will his election generated overseas into concrete concessions from America’s allies on his foreign policy agenda. In a meeting with President Hu Jintao of China, Mr. Obama tried to get the Chinese government on the same page as the United States on Iran policy. He told Mr. Hu that if scheduled nuclear talks between world powers and Iran next month did not result in a breakthrough — and administration officials were pessimistic that they would — then the United States would want China’s support for tougher sanctions against Iran.


HAHAHA, so China is an ally? The US better figure out who an ally is and who a RIVAL is. This goes for all our ‘allies’. If they are really rivals for economic, trade or military power, then they are not allies. We tried to make the entire planet our ‘allies’ and instead, we opened the doors to hell and now have all our direst trade and military rivals sleeping in bed with us. And giving us the cooties.


But administration officials said it remained unclear whether the Chinese would sign on to tougher sanctions if and when the time came. Obama administration officials insist that they are not giving up on efforts to get a complete freeze on construction in Jewish settlements in the West Bank. Nor, they said, do they plan to stop exhorting Arab governments to make diplomatic gestures toward Israel as a way to jump-start peace talks.


Obama’s feeble attempt at stopping the juggernaut of Zionist expansion in the West Bank failed long ago. Pretending he is still pressuring AIPAC to stop land grabbing is so nakedly stupid. Who is he trying to fool here? No one is fooled at this point. When the Jews in Israel openly mocked him and basically spat in his eye, Obama blinked.


He should have demanded Congress freeze all the loot the Jews in Israel are extracting from US taxpayers. This would save us precious money and would also stop the illegal land seizures instantaneously. Instead, nothing was done, the Jewish right wing fascists goose step all over Obama leaving him black and blue.


“Our objective all along has been to relaunch meaningful final status negotiations in a context that offered the prospect for success,” Mr. Obama’s special envoy to the region, George J. Mitchell, later told reporters. “We have never identified the steps requested as ends in themselves.”


So, the call to stop illegal settlements was not an end?  It was not a beginning, either.  It was NOTHING.  It was a faux feint that fainted from amnesia.  No one remembers anything that happened before today, at least, they pretend to do this.   Of course, just like in Afghanistan, if the European/American colonialists strip the natives of everything leaving them extremely poor, the natives will nurse their grudges, big time.


Israeli Officials Insist Medvedev ‘Misunderstood,’ Still Mull Iran Attacks — News from

Several high profile Israeli officials publicly castigated Russian President Dmitry Medvedev today for the later’s interview on CNN’s GPS with Fareed Zakaria in which President Medvedev claimed to have received assurances from Israeli President Shimon Peres that his nation would not attack Iran.


Israel is pissed that its violent warmongering is being ruined by Russia telling everyone, there will be no wars.  This hyper-aggressive nuclear state has been given a pass by US media. Israel can refuse any inspections of any sort for any WMD. Just like its prisoner state, the US.  We don’t let anyone see our own massive WMD arsenals.  The US and Israel parade about the planet, screaming about WMD and then, we jump onto and kill any nation that is declared free of WMD.  North Korea still exists due to not letting the US in to see if they are armed or not armed.  Iraq goofed in letting in investigators.


From toxic waste to toxic assets, the same people always get dumped on | George Monbiot | Comment is free | The Guardian

It was revolting, monstrous, inhumane – and scarcely different from what happens in Africa almost every day. The oil trading company Trafigura has just agreed to pay compensation to 31,000 people in Ivory Coast, after the Guardian and the BBC’s Newsnight obtained emails sent by its traders. They reveal that Trafigura knew that the oil slops it sent there in 2006 were contaminated with toxic waste. But the Ivorian contractor it employed to pump out the hold of its tanker dumped them around inhabited areas in the capital city and the countryside. Tens of thousands of people fell ill and 15 died. While the settlement says that the slops could at worst have caused a range of short-term low-level flu-like symptoms, and anxiety, it is one of the world’s worst cases of chemical exposure since the gas leak at the Union Carbide factory in Bhopal. But in all other respects the Trafigura case is unremarkable. It’s just another instance of the rich world’s global fly-tipping.


On the day that the Guardian published the company’s emails, it also carried a story about a shipwreck discovered in 480 metres of water off the Italian coast. Detectives found the ship after a tip-off from a mafioso. It appears to have been carrying drums of nuclear waste when the mafia used explosives to scuttle it. The informant, Francesco Fonti, said his clan had been paid £100,000 to get rid of it. What makes this story interesting is that the waste appears to be Norwegian. Norway is famous for its tough environmental laws, but a shipload of nuclear waste doesn’t go missing without someone high-up looking the other way.


Italian prosecutors are investigating the scuttling of a further 41 ships. But most of them weren’t sunk, like Fonti’s vessel, off the coast of Italy; they were lost off the coast of Somalia. When the great tsunami of 2004 struck the Somali coast, it dumped and smashed open thousands of barrels on the beaches and in villages up to 10km inland. According to the United Nations, they contained clinical waste from western hospitals, heavy metals, other chemical junk and nuclear waste. People started suffering from unusual skin infections, bleeding at the mouth, acute respiratory infections and abdominal haemorrhages. The barrels had been dumped in the sea, a UN spokesman said, for one obvious reason: it cost European companies around $2.50 a tonne to dispose of the waste this way, while dealing with them properly would have cost “something like $1,000 a tonne.” On the seabed off Somalia lies Europe’s picture of Dorian Gray: the skeleton in the closet of the languid new world we have made.


The only people who have sought physically to stop this dumping are Somali pirates.


A very interesting article.  As the Europeans and US powers point fingers at China, we are all not exactly the good guys.  The Mafia in Europe as well as the US infiltrate deep inside of rubbish removal systems because they are unprincipled and reckless.  They don’t care if they pollute the earth, they want their money.  The thinking process of the Mafia is identical to Goldman Sachs or JP Morgan: loot, rape and steal is OK if you make it legal, bribe the politicians or can conceal it.

sunset borger

side picture begging boneEmail:



P.O. BOX 483

BERLIN, NY 12022

Make checks out to ‘Elaine Supkis’

Click on the Pegasus icon on the right sidebar to donate via Paypal.

sunset borger


Filed under .money matters, war and peace

38 responses to “Attack Iran Plans Go Wry Thanks To Afghanistan Disasters

  1. if

    The Balkanization of North America
    While the basis of Professor Igor Pararin’s reasons for the upcoming US collapse, and I dare say that of all of N. America, are correct, his predictions of the new political reality are simplistic at best and widely incorrect at worst, not taking into account the actual demographic, historic and political situation on the sites.
    More than likely, a US collapse will have direct and balkanizing effects not only on the US but also on the weak Canadian confederacy, tied economically to the hip of the US economic might or there lack of, and to the civil war torn Mexican giant.
    As such, from what was originally four states: Canada, USA, Mexico and Cuba, as well as the dozen or so small island statelits of the north Caribbean, will form thirteen new entities, separated politically and economically.

  2. Daliwood

    I work with a Russian who hopes to become an American citizen. Discussing Afghanistan, I asked him, “What part of ‘unwinnable’ does Obama not understand?

    He replied, “Russia won there. Why can’t the U.S.?”

    “Russia got its ass kicked,” I said.

    “Oh, no, no, no.” He said. “We accomplished what we wanted in Afghanistan, and then we left because we were so tired of handling their petty little problems. It’s an unimportant country and we didn’t want to waste any more time on them.”

    I gave up and didn’t say anything else.

    And speaking of Russians and environmental dumping of toxic and nuke waste, the Russians have an unimaginably bad history of dumping nuke waste in the Arctic Ocean. The Russian Northern Fleet regarded the Ocean as their dumping ground, and there are documented cases of entire reactor cores being dumped there. In addition, there are undocumented but credible reports of a Russian ship that used a reactor vessel containing tons of high-level waste for target practice because it would not sink until they blew a hole in it.

    Thanks to the Russians, parts of the Arctic Ocean are a nuclear sewer.

    Finally, and off this particular topic, I found this Canadian economist’s article to be a nice general-audience presentation of many of the subjects you discuss:

  3. charlottemom

    Loved your roundup on Afghanistan. Wondered where a few other items fit it:

    US Navy training in Israel beginning now

    Z.Brzezinski warning that any Israel jets attack on Iran should be intercepted and rejected by US.

    Also you write:
    Pretending he (Bin Laden) doesn’t exist may be fun for armchair conspiracy theorists. But in the real world, he is a very real ideological force which should not be underestimated.

    this isn’t necessarily an either or proposition. Bin Laden the person may or may not exist but can still be used as driver for and recruiting of others into ideological wars

    Mythology? Folklore? Remember it’s not a lie if you believe it.


    ELAINE: Osama bin Laden is not only very real he ran in the same circles as my own family.

  4. nah

    the US can join Israel in ravaging Iran ONLY if the US lets China ravage the US in world trade. This is a totally lousy deal. But one beloved by every Zionist on earth.
    one of the many lousy deals we share with israel
    the modern war is a strange battlefield built on VDO game rules… and you are right… if we loose this unprofitable war, the 3rd world will become quite possibly a more engaging similarity of ideas, politics, and warfare… the creme has a way of rising to the top
    super national war has come a long way from the late 1950s… now all of a sudden all it takes is a ideology… whats next…
    being on the wrong side of israel… or wait… imean china
    I look to NATO as a force that in the end reckons this war… in fact the whole principled basis of our modern alliances rests on the FUTURE of this one conflict… humanity has good odds on another million years…
    if conflict will drive the creative forces of new states… LET IRAN FALL TO ITS KNEES ON THE SWORDS IT STILL WISHES FOR US
    we can break bread with the future of the middle east…
    i think the afghanis and most of these tribal warlords want to be more like all the other untrained uneducated masses…. wealthy prophets of mankinds hell…

    mirror mirror on the wall who is the fairest of them all

  5. JT

    Did you read about the Saudi Prince assassination attempt.
    Al-Qaeda is doing just fine…

    One thing that bothers me is why or why did he not blow it up during pray time, it would make the aiming a lot easier ;).

  6. flipspiceland

    Surely you didn’t mean you are baffled by the “why”?

  7. csurge

    Heh. Suddenly the Russians are backtracking a bit. I expected this. The Dragon probably got on the hot line with the Bear to inquire after the Persian Cat …and now the Russians are twisting words and being more ambiguous. Why risk a war that could easily cascade through the entire Middle-East, when all they have to do is wait and be patient to achieve the same ends.

    What really puzzles me about the latest little drama is the West has promised not to put missiles on Russian borders before…and yet every ten years or so they threaten to do it again, conveniently forgetting past promises. I would understand the Bear risking Chinese displeasure for a bona fide TREATY….but for more empty Western promises? No way.

    Surely they know by now that their enemies in Europe and America only want to conquer them by hook or by crook. Why risk the Beijing alliance over some empty words? Perhaps there is more going on behind the scenes than we know.

  8. Matheus

    I think Russia is playing chess, buying time while US goes bankrupt.

  9. emsnews

    There is no way in hell the US can run Iran like we run Iraq. That is, the people there are very feisty and fight their own governments just like Iraq except for one major difference: Iran has religious/ethnic unity. Unlike fractured Iraq.

    So they won’t fight each other if we stick our noses in their affairs and kill hundreds of thousands of them.

    And Russia will feast off of high energy prices if there is a war so Russia has incentive to see the US ram itself into that quagmire.

    Israel simply wants to destroy Iran. So does Saudi Arabia who is Sunni and fears and hates them far more than the Jews, even!

  10. if

    A British newspaper reported that the Arctic Sea had been carrying a batch of S-300 missiles, as conspiracy theories swirl over the ship’s mysterious disappearance and reappearance.
    “Regarding the S-300s on board the Arctic Sea, this is absolutely untrue,” Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov told reporters, when asked if the ship was secretly carrying the advanced Russian-made missiles to Iran.
    The Arctic Sea, a Maltese-flagged vessel with a Russian crew, was hijacked near Sweden in late July before it was recovered by the Russian navy in the Atlantic Ocean several weeks later.

  11. emsnews

    Rumors are fun, aren’t they? One can spin all sorts of gossamer webs on missing information.

  12. if

    From The Times
    September 11, 2009 .
    Sergei Lavrov, Russia’s Foreign Minister, failed to dampen suspicions, telling reporters in Moscow: “To verify rumours you should go to the source of the rumours.” Israeli security officials have said that they tipped off the Kremlin about an illegal cargo of weapons on board the Arctic Sea to allow the Russians to intercept the vessel. Mr Lavrov has denied that Arctic Sea was carrying smuggled S300 missiles.
    But yesterday he defended Russia’s right to sell them to Iran after warning of disastrous consequences if military action was launched to prevent the Islamic republic developing a nuclear bomb.
    “The S300 has nothing to do with it. Our co-operation with Iran, including military technology, is legitimate and quite transparent. It is not against international law,” Mr Lavrov said.
    “I think someone wants Iran not to be able to protect itself from airstrikes. If a war starts we will have a flow of refugees across our territory.”

  13. JSmith

    Closer to home… Muammar Gadhafi harangued the UN for an hour and a half yesterday.

    The WSJ has a great photo of the current General Assembly president, Ali Treki of, yep, Libya, holding his head in his hands during Gadhafi’s speech.

    Treki needs to watch his ass – the Maximum Leader could have him shot for a stunt like that.

  14. nah

    Police hold suspect after chopper robbery
    LOL mercenary army LOL

  15. criticalcontrarian

    @JSmith: Great photo. The man looks absolutely angelic even sans halo. LOL.

  16. Paul S

    If Israel is so anxious to attack Iran’s nukes, why hasn’t Israel done so already? I think attacking Iran was a Bush/neo-con fantasy driven by their own insane, self-serving reasons using Israeli security as a cover. If Iran’s nukes are such a danger to Israel, why hasn’t Israel attacked Iran by now? This speculation over Israel attacking Iran is getting old. US failures in the Middle East are more a result of US policymakers. People like Donald Rumsfeld and Dick Cheney. These guys, for example drummed Gen. Shenseki out of a job when Shenseki testified to Congress that the US would need around 300,000 troops to stabilize Iraq. But that’s not what the Bush neo-cons wanted to hear. US policy was doomed to fail from the very beginning owing to arrogance and incompetence more than any control by AIPAC.

  17. emsnews

    Israel has not gotten permission from the US to do this. They itch to do this and just might still do it.

    They know that they can’t do as they please all the time, too much bad publicity. They can see clearly, Israel is losing public support in both Europe and the US.

  18. criticalcontrarian

    Oops! Who’s the conspiracy theorist now??

  19. emsnews

    Duh. I have always supported a real investigation of 9/11 especially the business of why Atta used that airport in Florida!

    But this was KILLED by the people who demand we all believe in ‘bombs in the buildings’ and other junk! Now, no one dares even talk about it for fear of a mob of hysterics will descend on them, yelling about this.

    I watched the ‘bombs’ story evolve from close up and way back when it was launched, I said it was misinformation being spewed out by DARPA to mislead people so they don’t examine the real problems here: how Atta and bin Laden are both CIA operatives in various ways.

  20. charlottemom

    “Duh. I have always supported a real investigation of 9/11 especially the business of why Atta used that airport in Florida!

    But this was KILLED by the people who demand we all believe in ‘bombs in the buildings’ and other junk! Now, no one dares even talk about it for fear of a mob of hysterics will descend on them, yelling about this.”

    @ Elaine — Maybe I missed this, but do not remember the 9/11 Commission discarding the Florida plane investigation to pursue the “bombs in the building junk.” As I recall, there was first no investigation needed per Bush, then a cursury “investigation” was hurriedly held, where none of this was addressed. Honestly I’d wish they’d pursued it all. I think the truth is there – somewhere between the terrorists did it all to anti-US rouge group possibly including gov individuals did it all, but I refuse to connect dots that our government is keeping invisible.

    I’m not sure why you are so resistant investigating bomb theory (in planes, building, whatever). You are quite attached to your POV – that the terrorists plotted it all. Instead you choose to believe that two planes can take down three buildings, two of which were absolutely pulverized. Now, that sounds ludicrious to me!

    p.s. — Curious to know do you think false flags are pursed for long term policies?

    What are your thoughts on the latest NYT terror plot — with government informer offering to supply “potential terrorist in mind only” with bomb materials for attack? Entrapment?! NY Police sure did interfere with this setup. This is a pattern with Denver, London busts. Funny how this heats up just when US is at a policy crossroads — and its the same people demanding more, more, war against al queda (Iraq), Taliban (Iran). Do Iraqi and Iranian muslim nationals hate us. Yes. Would they love to inflict pain and suffering on us. Yes. But these motivations are manipulated and these “terrorists in mind only” quite useful pawns for those pursuing certain policies.


    ELAINE: Since WWI, the US government has used entrapment as a means of infiltrating and then arresting potential assassins, terrorists, etc. This is quite common. When I was in the antiwar movement, we had to worry about this all the time. Whenever anyone suggested we do something dangerous or illegal, I would automatically put them in the ‘government agent’ list and watch them closely. Often, the most radical person turned out to be working for the government.

    But then, plots are hatched that don’t have government agents behind it. This is a MURKY BUSINESS. And very hard to track. I am against the government doing this, of course. Back in Bavaria in the 1920’s the government there hired people to track radical political groups. One of these agents was a certain Herr Adolf Hitler…!

  21. charlottemom

    from drudge….

    FBI arrests Jordanian for downtown Dallas bomb plot…
    Illinois man charged in plot to bomb federal offices…
    Terror suspects accused of targeting Marine base in Quantico…
    Men vanish after taking photos of Philly subway system…

    I guess we need more, more, more war against bad guys. Hmmm who should we attack next.

    on the next headline, really, really big letters, Drudge helpfully provides “information” on Iran.


    so there it is.

  22. criticalcontrarian

    Elaine: “Duh. I have always supported a real investigation of 9/11 especially the business of why Atta used that airport in Florida!”

    That was a pointed question not directed at anyone in particular. Otherwise it would have a had a smiley at the end of it. The point being, the ex-commissioners going to be labeled conspiracy theorists by whom? And why only now? What brought on this bout of “truth”? Cui bono? The plot thickens…

  23. emsnews

    The ex commissioners want what I want: a true and full investigation.

    To get this, we need political action. We can’t get this because this issue can’t even be discussed without people getting angry if we don’t talk about bombs in the buildings!

    See? It DERAILS any attempt at organizing people to demand a proper investigation. I hope this is figured out by everyone here. How plain can I make this?

    Having preset ideas is FATAL. Got that? Fatal! And believe me, the bombs in the buildings believers are totally set on this and will consider no other options, none whatsoever.

    Think carefully: how has this destroyed any unity for an investigation? Can you see the dynamics at work here? It is painfully obvious to me.

    This is why most websites refuse to even mention 9/11 these days. It has been dropped. I refuse to drop it because I have integrity.

  24. criticalcontrarian

    In my opinion one cannot thank the Truther’s enough, this all would have been swept under the media carpet, the usual SOP, without them this would be a War On Terror ad nauseum, ad infinitum just like the Holocaust. Whether there were bombs in the buildings or not remains to be seen. That is for a “real transparent investigation” to establish. The 9/11 Truthers have elevated this issue to a level national consciousness that has forced the “commissioners” and government et al to react. So we watch from the sidelines to see whether they improve on their story or possibly come out with the truth, that is if they need a pariah to hang for all the lies and criminal acts they have committed on the American people, and the world.

    About preset ideas, aren’t you working from one Elaine? Just asking.

  25. charlottemom

    @ Critical – I couldn’t have said this any better.

    Elaine, not to be disrespectful but you should take your own words to heart.

    “Having preset ideas is FATAL. Got that? Fatal! And believe me, the bombs in the buildings believers are totally set on this and will consider no other options, none whatsoever.”

    The “truthers” did indeed force Bush to establish a Commission (Elaine your timeline is not right). This was the public action that you called for. I do agree with you, this organic citizen outrage was hijacked later through a small minority of loudmouth crazies (kind of like Glen Beck/Fox co-opting the 9/12 movement)

    As for commissioners wanting the “truth” I’m not falling for it. I know they all said this,but let’s remember who they were — government loyalists all of them. Were these commissioners specialists in air command and control, flight security & transportation or counterterrorism, explosives, terrorism, intelligence. None had practical knowledge of the keen areas that needed the most examination.

    When Bush appointed them, he asked for a limited commission and that’s what the delivered.

    I don’t know — none of us do — about bombs in buildings, airplanes. I’m not willing to accept any theory. I do find the idea that two planes can take down 3 downtown NYC buildings — two of which were completely pulverized — to be ludicrious. (when was the last time two enormous buildings were pulverized?)

  26. zip

    just speculation, but i think this is the reason (last lines)

    …Iran replaces Dollar with Euro in FX
    Sun, 20 Sep 2009 09:58:03 GMT

    Iran’s President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad has ordered the replacement of the US dollar by the euro in the country’s foreign exchange accounts.

    The September 12 edict was issued following a decision by the trustees of the country’s foreign reserves, Mehr News Agency reported.

    Earlier, the Islamic Republic of Iran had announced that the euro would replace the greenback in the country’s oil transactions. Iran has called on other OPEC members to ditch the sinking dollar in favor of the more credible euro.

    Following the switch, the interest rate for the facilities provided from the Foreign Exchange Reserves will be reduced from12 to 5 percent.

    Since being introduced by the European Union, the euro has gained popularity internationally and there are now more euros in circulation than the dollar.

    The move will also help decouple Iran from the US banking system.

  27. DeVaul

    Wow! Another war over a currency, which is nothing more than a complete mental fabrication requiring the destruction of millions of trees. This era may become known in the future as the “psychotic era”, when all out wars were launched over the right to print a piece of paper.

    Regarding the “truthers” (I doubt they are) and the bombs in the building stuff, here is what Sherlock Holmes would say:

    “Data! Data! I need data!”

    Assumptions, speculation, mathmatical formulas based on assumptions, rumours, claims, and architectual theories do not count as “evidence” — that is, evidence that would be admissable in a court of law. That is what is missing.

    “(when was the last time two enormous buildings were pulverized?)”

    When was the last time a 747 fully loaded with high octane jet fuel slammed into a skyscraper at full speed?

    Have the “truthers” attempted to replicate this event to show that a skyscraper would NOT collapse after such an event? That would be called “empirical evidence”, the kind that Sherlock Holmes and even modern detectives use to prove or disprove something in court.

    If the “truthers” can show conclusively that a skyscraper can absorb an impact by a 747 fully loaded with high octane jet fuel, have one or two floors entirely incinerated from one end to the other, and then burn from a high intensity fire for a period of time without collapsing, then that would allow the investigation to move on to the real cause of the collapse of the two skyscrapers.

    While the “truthers” discuss various bombs and bomb materials, the rest of us will wait for evidence that is “clear and convincing”.

    We will also continue to focus on the fact that not one jet was intercepted or shot down by our air force, that all Saudi Princes were allowed to flee the country the next day, and that a gang of very wealthy men had “convened” a meeting at an air force base that “just happened” to have a nuclear bomb shelter the morning of the attacks.

    In other words, we will not be distracted from things we know to be true.

  28. charlottemom

    @ duval —

    I agree with most of what you said. I think there are many many twists, turns, connections, deceptions, hidden truths all mixed into what’s become the unstoppable, inarguable mythology of 9/11. Like any mythology there is plenty of magical thinking.

    I am not necessarily in the truther camp, because they do what you do. They take the parts they can either (try to) explain or discard and then leave the rest in a heap.

    You’ve done this by avoiding the inconvenience of the third building that went down in the same fashion of the first two — but without the planes.

    There is your Holmesian evidence in reverse. If the 3rd building can go down without the aid of a plane, perhaps there was something/someone else was involved — not admitted by the government. (NIST is still “testing” and “analyzing evidence from this building.We await their conclusion.) HA

    Whatever. As for that “747 fully loaded with high octane jet fuel, have one or two floors entirely incinerated from one end to the other, and then burn from a high intensity fire for a period of time ”

    Funny – Kerosene (that’s essentially was jet fuel is) hasn’t melted through a Sears issue steel kerosene heater yet. it burns kerosene with a chimney effect. And it has VERY thin steel walls that don’t even get rubbery, much less collapse. Let’s continue arguing over obvious chemistry while the rest of the story is forgotten.

    Separate and apart from the truthers, I think the important issue comes down to whether you believe the government’s copyrighted 9/11 Story or not. I’m in the “not” camp.

  29. @ charlottemom, et al -,

    IIRC, the NIST has made its conclusions with all three of the buildings: they collapsed due to factrors arising from the sustained damages combined with the unusual constructions of all three buildings (hint: all the floors in these three buildings were wide-open spaces instead of forests of columns as in NORMAL syscrapers like the Empire State Building).

  30. Has anyone noticed, Bama is pulling the ol’ bush WMD trick with the sudden ‘discovery’ of a Iran nuclear facility. Everyone is swallowing it.

  31. Also, that dust storm in Sydney Aus., end times or what? May be a one off but i would guess they are vulnerable for another. You can’t live in a sand dune [without oil wells] ,at least in the way you are accustomed.

  32. DM

    “747”? Not real hot on getting facts straight, are you?

    Dust storms are very common in Australia. Just hasn’t been a decent one in Sydney for about 20 years. It wasn’t end times or global warming twenty years ago either.

  33. emsnews

    Australia is chugging northwards so, as it heads towards the equator, it gets hotter.

  34. charlottemom


    NIST produced a draft report for recommendations and comments about this time last year. That’s the last I heard from NIST. Please let me know if they finalized their fiction.

    Hint: I know what the at least some of the floors looked like — I used to work at the company that was on one of the floors hit. There were most certainly were columns on that floor although the space was mostly occupied with computer systems and not individual offices (is that what you meant?)

    Look, you obviously believe the story; I’m not going to waste time trying to convince you otherwise. There’s too much other sh#t that hitting the fan now anyway.

  35. emsnews

    Columns are not full support systems. As a person who worked on many buildings and know structural engineering, you need full weight bearing WALLS internally to make a structure strong.

    Building #7 didn’t have any of this.

  36. DeVaul

    ““747″? Not real hot on getting facts straight, are you?”

    See, this is the problem with “truthers”. They love to quibble over trivia and meaningless facts so that they can accuse someone of being clueless (i.e. I don’t know the exact model of the airplanes, hence I must know nothing). This is a fun kind of game for them, but produces very little lasting “truth”.

    “Funny – Kerosene (that’s essentially was jet fuel is) hasn’t melted through a Sears issue steel kerosene heater yet.”

    It also hasn’t melted through an aircraft’s wings or jet engine when properly used. Good grief! This is typical “truther” evidence. It leads nowhere and proves nothing.

    As for the government’s story, anyone who is even slightly openminded and literate can deduce from my final comments that I most certainly do not believe the government’s story, and I never claimed to, but “truthers” like to make false accusations about you if you do not agree with everything they propose — not much different from the government, really. They also refuse to answer legitimate questions that you might have. They simply ignore them.

    That is why when someone claims to be a “truther”, my first mental reaction is: I doubt it.

  37. DM

    Australia is chugging northwards so, as it heads towards the equator, it gets hotter.

    Hey Elaine, you forgot the smiley face 🙂

    (For anyone who doesn’t know – the “fast moving” Australian plate would be 2 inches per annum at best. Take a while to reach China in that particular slow boat.)

Leave a Reply

Fill in your details below or click an icon to log in: Logo

You are commenting using your account. Log Out /  Change )

Twitter picture

You are commenting using your Twitter account. Log Out /  Change )

Facebook photo

You are commenting using your Facebook account. Log Out /  Change )

Connecting to %s