Mexico Has Very Draconian Immigration Laws

ΩΩThe illegal immigration debate between the left and the right in the US reflects global unease about the pressing issue, what is a ‘citizen’ and what is ‘sovereignty’.  As the EU fall into a very dark and deep pit of hell as ‘sovereign’ nations discover they have no real sovereignty at all, as all of Europe sees traditional borders collapse because anyone inside the EU can live anywhere, without restraints, thus, causing mass migrations to any state that has good social welfare systems or jobs, we see in the US the same problems of non-citizens migrating towards social welfare systems, for example.  Then, there is the totally racist state of Israel that expels the natives and replaces them with foreigners who are Jewish.  There is no concept of a ‘citizen’ in that state at all, it is pure tribalism.

ΩΩThe US has a lot of tribalism, too.  This is one reason why so many Americans happily support the rank religious and racist bigotry of Israel.  They heartily hope that will evolve here, too!  The Deep South still has a very strong component of ‘separate civil rights’ as Rand Paul expressed so endearingly.  The odious idea that citizenship is entirely based on one’s race still haunts the US.

ΩΩOn the other side of the scale, on the left, a fatal form of ‘internationalism’ prevails: naked hatred of our sovereign state, contempt showered on the idea of citizenship, a desire to be a footloose internationalist who can do as one pleases all over the planet: this is correctly seen by others as a shocking ideology and a dangerous trend. But BOTH extremes are killing the Golden Goose.

ΩΩPrevious to 1789, no humans on earth had any right to live anywhere if the ruling royals of various empires, kingdoms or principalities said ‘No.’  That is, people were mainly peasants who were literally owned by the property owners and few peasants owned their own property so they were ipso facto, basically slaves. This was true of even cities!  The free cities grew much faster than the slave cities because desperate humans would run off to say, London or Milan or Paris to get away from their masters who owned the farmlands they worked on so hard.

ΩΩThe places where the concept of ‘citizenship’ grew up in these cities!  Florence or Venice, for example, had early forms of ‘citizenship’ based on the Roman models.  But like ancient Rome, only property owners could be citizens.  In the US, the battle to extend ‘citizenship’ to non-property owners was a long and vicious battle AFTER the revolution.  In England, the general population of former serfs got the vote only in the 20th century and even today, representation is still very non-democratic in nature.

ΩΩBy the way, I see in both the far left and far right, lots of whining about the ‘international ruling elites’ who are destroying us.  Well, guess what?  These elites love no sovereign citizenship powers of the populations who live here, there and everywhere!  They want to float about all of us and be free of all duties, taxes and rules of various sovereign countries!  DUH.  To fight this, we need more sovereign citizen powers, not annihilate this.  And as ancient Romans figured out, the bundle of many beats the individual stick (the word for this, ‘fasces’ is the core word of ‘fascism’).

ΩΩFellow citizens, I implore you all to not throw away your hard-won sovereign rights to be part of a sovereign country!  We are seeing this slip between our fingers as foreign powers dominate our own government increasingly and have swindled us out of our jobs, our financial futures and our ownership of this land!  Now, on to the news broiling around the shocking notion, the US should stop the flood of illegal immigrants:

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Mexico’s illegals laws tougher than Arizona’s – Washington Times

Mexican President Felipe Calderon denounced as “racial discrimination” an Arizona law giving state and local police the authority to arrest suspected illegal immigrants and vowed to use all means at his disposal to defend Mexican nationals against a law he called a “violation of human rights.”

The law also says Mexico can deport foreigners who are deemed detrimental to “economic or national interests,” violate Mexican law, are not “physically or mentally healthy” or lack the “necessary funds for their sustenance” and for their dependents. But the legislation, signed April 23 by Arizona Gov. Jan Brewer, is similar to Reglamento de la Ley General de Poblacion — the General Law on Population enacted in Mexico in April 2000, which mandates that federal, local and municipal police cooperate with federal immigration authorities in that country in the arrests of illegal immigrants.

Under the Mexican law, illegal immigration is a felony, punishable by up to two years in prison. Immigrants who are deported and attempt to re-enter can be imprisoned for 10 years. Visa violators can be sentenced to six-year terms. Mexicans who help illegal immigrants are considered criminals.

ΩΩWe cannot have one set of immigration laws here while Mexico has the exact mirror opposite, there. I still remember when Mexico had RELIGIOUS restrictions on immigration and marriage! You could not move there and apply for citizenship if you were not a Catholic! This sort of restrictions on freedoms is not new. It is actually quite old. When the US was founded, the Founding Fathers had very intense debates about Catholics! There was considerable fear of the Catholics because the belief was, they obey Rome, not swear fealty to the US.

ΩΩ The fact remains, the Democrats applauded the President of Mexico when he dared to lecture us about immigration laws…while being severely selective about who gets to move into Mexico! The Democratic party is now so anxious to court the Mexican Catholic vote, they are willing to enable a foreign leader in his plans to flood us with his excess population while being very draconian about identical population moves into Mexico.

This is a typical problem with the US: we allow virtually one way trade with various allies such as Japan, for example. Hardly anyone makes a ruckus about that little problem.

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Feds might not process illegal immigrants – KOLD News 13

Assistant Secretary of Homeland Security John Morton says that federal authorities may not necessarily process all illegal immigrants referred to them by Arizona authorities.

Morton says Arizona’s enforcement law is not good government and says a comprehensive federal approach is best.

ΩΩToo bad the ‘comprehensive federal approach’ has basically been ‘do nothing’.  In all periods of economic contractions, any sovereign nation that lets in a flood of illegal immigrants and lets them take jobs usually ends up with the citizens running to fascists to protect themselves.  We see this here in the US: we began to crawl towards liberalism when we got slammed by a depression.  Instead of understanding the need to protect the US people, the liberal left has decided that invaders are more important.

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Obama Set To Send 1,200 Troops To US-Mexico Border

Under pressure to take action, President Barack Obama on Tuesday ordered 1,200 National Guard troops to boost security along the U.S.-Mexico border, pre-empting Republican efforts to force a congressional vote to send the troops.

Obama will also request $500 million for border protection and law enforcement activities, according to lawmakers and administration officials.

The president’s action comes as chances for comprehensive immigration reform, Obama’s long-stated goal, look increasingly dim in this election year. Obama has been all but compelled to do something since Arizona’s passage of a tough illegal-immigration law thrust the border problem into the public spotlight….

…In 2006, President George W. Bush sent thousands of troops to the border to perform support duties that tie up immigration agents. But that program has since ended, and politicians in border states have called for troops to be sent to curb human and drug smuggling and to deal with Mexico’s drug violence that has been spilling over into the United States.

ΩΩWhen the Democrats took over Congress, they dropped most pretense of protecting our borders even as they poured over $250 billion so far into protecting Afghanistan and Iraq’s borders.  They are spending like drunk sailors on secret infiltrations of Iran while denouncing Iran for cracking down on people entering the country illegally (those sob stories about the hikers from the US who now sit in prison for ignoring Iran’s sovereignty).  The US is spending lots of money building schools in Afghanistan while schools close in the US due to lack of funding.

ΩΩThis schizophrenic attitude of the Democrats extends in all directions.  They want domestic spending, too, but when push come to shove, they and the GOP both want more spending in foreign lands (such as Israel which sees no bar to money requests, for example).  Obama, on the advice of his rather treasonous staff, let the patrols on our southern borders to fall.  This is exactly why Arizona passed these draconian laws: THEY HAD NO CHOICE.

ΩΩNow, Obama is backtracking but this is not leadership, it is just naked fear.  The polls make it crystal clear: the liberal position which sides with illegal immigration is disliked by around 70%+ of the citizens of this nation!  This is very bad news for liberals.  It will probably lead to more years out of power as the liberals wonder why even recent citizens of Hispanic descent vote conservative once they gain the golden grail of citizenship.

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Deportation Nightmare: Eduardo Caraballo, US Citizen Born In Puerto Rico, Detained As Illegal Immigrant

Caraballo was born in Puerto Rico, making him a natural-born citizen of the United States. He moved to the mainland as an infant, and now lives in Chicago.

Last week, NBC reports that he was arrested in connection with a stolen car in Berwyn. Caraballo maintains his innocence. In any case, when his mother posted bail on Friday, he was not freed.

“Instead of being released, he was told by authorities that Immigration and Customs Enforcement was detaining him because he was an illegal immigrant,” NBC reports.

Caraballo spent the weekend in the custody of federal immigration agents. When he presented them with ID and his birth certificate, he says officials were skeptical: “Because of the way I look, I have Mexican features, they pretty much assumed that my papers were fake.”

ΩΩLet’s be frank here, this guy who wasn’t born in the US, is a citizen because of changes in the laws concerning Puerto Rico which makes it a part of the US while NOT a part of the US (why isn’t it a state, damn it??? ).  This leads to legal confusion that is easily fixed if we honor the people of that island and finally make them full citizens!  I am 100% for that!  Right now, they are ‘half-citizens’ in that they are NOT represented in Congress.  An intolerable situation.

ΩΩI want this legal limbo to end!  But this story illustrates another thing: our borders which were DELIBERATELY left insecure (the Democrats pulled back troops patrolling the border and sent them to Afghanistan!) have let in a flood of aliens who have no business being here.  To catch these people, we have to detain various people who COMMIT CRIMES and examine VERY CAREFULLY who they are so we can tell if they are citizens or aliens.

ΩΩThis process can take several days!  DUH.  And this gentleman committed a crime.  He wanted to get out on bail.  Unfortunately, due to the goofy status of Puerto Rico, he has a harder time proving he is a citizen.  Instead of focusing on legalizing Puerto Rico via the same method we turned Hawaii into a state, we get liberals demanding we don’t investigate CRIMINALS who are of dubious nationality (and Puerto Rico’s problem is a nationality problem!).

This man’s problems, aside from his own personal criminal tendencies and I hope he goes to prison, can’t be solved by ignoring illegal aliens and releasing them when they have false ID.

On to another goofy story today: the NYT has a gushing article about how Americans can buy houses in Mexico and live there.  I will note here that no Americans doing this gets any dual citizenship rights like aliens get here when they want to be Americans while still swearing fealty to foreign powers:

International Real Estate – House Hunting in … Mexico – NYTimes.com

San Miguel also has an active vacation rental market, although it, too, has been affected. Dotty Vidargas, broker and owner of Dotty Vidargas Real Estate, said vacation rental occupancy rates had fallen 70 percent in the past two years….Most foreign buyers are from the United States and Canada, Ms. Vidargas said, although buyers also come from Western Europe, Australia and Asia. “In the last few years,” she added, “more Mexicans have been buying in San Miguel.”

According to Mr. Kohn, around 75 percent of vacation-home buyers in San Miguel are foreign. Of the remaining 25 percent, many come from Mexico City….Most vacation homes are priced in United States dollars. Foreigners can buy property without restriction in Mexico as long it is not on the coast or near the border, Ms. Vidargas said…. He says foreigners favor new homes in gated communities over homes in the more expensive Centro and Jardin areas of the city.

ΩΩHAHAHA….so…Mexico will allow you to buy a house except when it is basically on Mexico’s borders!  Why is that???  HAHAHA…um, if people flock to the border regions and buy land, they will leave the state and carve it out of the main body!  DUH.  Often, pro-illegal immigration hot heads will snarl, they intend to chop off all border areas and return these to Mexican controls!  DUH.

ΩΩSo, Mexico is very cautious about this matter while simultaneously, snarling that it is OK for Mexicans to own property in the US on our border with Mexico with an eye on secession!  Can liberals in the US see this?  Understand why this is a very important issue and not some sob story ‘cultural values’ issue???  I hope all good liberals begin demanding the right for Americans to own property in the state of Sonora!

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CounterPunch: Tells the Facts, Names the Names

The Foreign Minister, for example. Who but a diabolic anti-Semite could have appointed Avigdor Lieberman, of all people, to this post? The job of a foreign minister is to make friends and convince world opinion that we are right. Lieberman is working hard and skillfully to get Israel hated by one and all.

Or the Minister of the Interior. He works from morning to night to shock human rights defenders and supply ammunition to the worst enemies of Israel. Recently, he prevented two babies from entering Israel because their father is gay. He prevents women from joining their husbands in Israel. He deports children of foreign workers, who are building the state.

ΩΩIt is particularly disgusting to see Zionists here siding with illegal aliens while at the same time, the Jews in Israel practice a form of racism that is every bit as bad as our friendly ally who exports tons of stuff to the US: Japan.  Both Israel and Japan are extremely racially xenophobic.  At the same time, both want the US to be open to their own people so they can enter, exit, do business and own property here.

ΩΩThe US is even paying Israel to install private highways for Jews only in Israel and we pay for their border patrols, too!  And the damn wall the Jews are building around Palestinian ghettos!  But here in the US, we are not allowed to even use our own troops to watch our own borders!

ΩΩWe cannot have open borders when many of our allies have closed borders.  In Europe, the EU has erased many borders but the hard core of nationalism still exists right under the surface.  Economic distress will cause it to rise again.  Hungary, for example, has voted more and more for the fascists who are anxious to pass laws forbidding other EU members or the UK populace from buying cheaper Hungarian properties, for example.

ΩΩGermany recently infuriated the Greeks by suggesting they sell of islands and parts of their cities to foreigners to pay for their debts. The US and UK are selling off public property to pay for our joint trade deficits!  None of the BRIC nations allow illegal immigration and neither does Japan!  We have to figure this out.  The left, by defending people who are taking US jobs, is once again stabbing the US workers in the back.  And this won’t be forgiven.  Not in 100 years.  The only virtue the left can cling to is, the GOP has betrayed the workers even more!  EVERYONE who runs things here have betrayed the US workers which is why, like Japanese workers, they are seeing a severe decline in their economic condition!

ΩΩFiguring out how to protect the workers is life and death.  The politician who figures this out will be the future ruler of this nation when the workers finally get fed up and I am betting, alas, that this will probably be a far right wing person and NOT a libertarian, either, but some protectionist.  A Teddy Roosevelt, if we are lucky, an Adolf Hitler if we are stupid.

sunset borger

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65 Comments

Filed under Politics, religion, war and peace

65 responses to “Mexico Has Very Draconian Immigration Laws

  1. leavingtheoffice

    “Rothschild plan would see privatization of Britain’s massive public motorway”
    http://rawstory.com/rs/2010/0525/uk-plan-privatization-britains-massive-public-motorway

    I’m getting more and more convinced that an explosive situation is developing over there.

  2. Dibbles

    “Mexican President Felipe Calderon …vowed to use all means at his disposal to defend Mexican nationals against a law he called a “violation of human rights.”

    Yeah, right. He’s done so much for them in his own jurisdiction. (snark).

    Violation of human rights?! Try entering Mexico illegally. You’ll be shot dead. On the spot. No legal issues or human rights issues to be concerned with.

    If this oligarchs’ clown cared one iota for the Mexican people he’d concern himself with trying to protect their citizenry and rebuild the Mexican economy. He’d certainly declare NAFTA a failure since it’s devastated Mexico worse than the U.S. But his solution is to demonize economically struggling Arizona for trying to enforce FEDERAL immigration laws since the federal government has no inclination to fulfill it’s obligations to that state’s citizenry.

    What a farce.

  3. Elaine writes: “Too bad the ‘comprehensive federal approach’ has basically been ‘do nothing’. In all periods of economic contractions, any sovereign nation that lets in a flood of illegal immigrants and lets them take jobs usually ends up with the citizens running to fascists to protect themselves. We see this here in the US: we began to crawl towards liberalism when we got slammed by a depression. Instead of understanding the need to protect the US people, the liberal left has decided that invaders are more important.”

    First, it is just flat wrong, inaccurate, to say “the ‘comprehensive federal approach’ has basically been ‘do nothing’.” There is a federal paramilitary, called ICE. Started under G. W. Bush, and continuing today, this outfit deported 400,000 people in one year alone.

    Elaine is sometimes forgetting the rule of
    law. Fascist states are sovereign too, and that’s not saying much for them! That doesn’t make sovereignty something special. The important political question, as it has been put for the last nine years, is whether we will be a civilized state, a state that will protect people taken into custody.

    Elaine says “the liberal left has decided that invaders are more important.” This is a distortion and a slander of what the left has been saying with consistency. The left asks for habeas corpus, for paper trails to exist when people, even illegal immigrants, are arrested. These prisoners have literally been disappeared, and prevented from having any access to a lawyer. The deportation process has become unaccountable in the hands of the feds.

    ΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩ

    ELAINE: 11 million illegals.

  4. the fool on the hill

    I must confess that I was a little taken aback at the definitiveness with which our man’s Constitutional right to a presumption of innocence was brushed aside here.

    If the story was that the cops busted the guy trying to escape in a stolen car that would be one thing. But being “arrested in connection with a stolen car” doesn’t say much.

    Of course, the guy could have a rap sheet a mile long for all I know, in which case an inference of criminality is certainly less worthy of criticism from a practical standpoint.

  5. emsnews

    He was f….king arrested for a CRIME. How can you fudge that? He wanted to get out on bail so they had to CHECK HIM OUT. Duh. I have been arrested once actually twice upon a time and you don’t just pop out of jail again. And that was years and years and years ago when LBJ was President.

  6. emsnews

    As for Constitutional rights: you don’t get out of jail until it is verified who you are, where you live and of course, then bail is set, etc, etc, a tedious process.

    The cops who arrested me for political reasons (I committed no crime at all!) let me out at 2am without a coat and it was damn cold but a group of friends (fellow revolutionaries) were waiting outside of the jail as the cops told them to leave or they would be arrested…I went home in triumph, of course.

    But this sort of needling is NORMAL for cops and they do this to citizens! So my sympathies are not tremendous, this guy wasn’t some poor teenager girl giving political speeches, he was an outright criminal. Big difference.

  7. the fool on the hill

    Well Elaine, I don’t know what to tell you. But without Constitutional protections like the presumption of innocence and the right to petition for habeas relief we might as well bring back the Star Chamber.

    I’m sure that would suit Dick Cheney just fine.

  8. the fool on the hill

    I think there may be a misunderstanding as well. Once again, I have failed to express myself clearly. I see that my original comment was a bit ambiguous. I did not want to be overly terse but I am afraid I will have to be more direct. I am not criticizing the government for checking into the background of someone who has been legally detained. I am criticizing you for announcing that this guy definitely deserves to go prison when the only facts presented are that he “was arrested in connection with a stolen car”.

  9. the fool on the hill

    But it’s not really important, in fact, I thought twice about posting the comment at all. I usually don’t comment on things that bug me here. This was an exception. My purpose in life is not to annoy you.

    I may have to just give up talking to people altogether. Apparently I am so stupid that I just can’t seem to communicate with anyone.

  10. emsnews

    I have had to tangle a lot with criminals in the past. I don’t have too much sympathy for any of them. And this guy wasn’t being denied a trial. He wasn’t even being held at Gitmo…which is truly a horrible place and should be shut down.

    You don’t get out on bail instantly if there is any question about whether or not you will show up for a trial! And trust me, illegal aliens don’t show up for trials.

  11. emsnews

    I strongly suspect that the ‘liberal’ side has fallen off the opposite cliff that the ‘fascist/right’ is falling off of here. All sides have become draconian and have so many sacred cows, the thundering herds can be spotted via satellite.

    What I should do is gnash my teeth whenever we try to stop the flood, the huge flood of illegals in our country! I should demand they not be hindered but assisted. Of course, we have many millions of unemployed Americans and Congress is debating whether to keep giving many of them unemployment insurance past 99 weeks!

    We are pulled in all sorts of directions but trust me on this for once: during times when countries are going bankrupt when countries strip themselves of jobs and let in floods of aliens, these countries….DIE. Or freak out and get some sort of solution, history tells us, these solutions are not fun.

    Now, explaining this force and talking about sovereignty has caused many readers…just like when I fully supported vaccinations…to flip out. It doesn’t fit the Group Think Lockstep Position. These ‘beliefs’ on the right or the left are rock solid and when anyone dares to examine these various knee jerk beliefs, they are seen as scary, hostile or dangerous people.

    This is how all religions operate. The constellation of dogmas are designed to LOCK OUT any incoming information that might possibly motivate the True Believers to change their minds about something. Changing one’s pet beliefs is very difficult, it is as hard as putting down one’s pet dog.

    My stark warnings to the left to beware of being very pro-illegal alien/pro-criminal/anti-protection of US citizens and workers falls on deaf ears. This is because people on the left (AND the right) like to imagine they are superior, strong and morally upright.

    But look here: throwing away our national sovereignty, our citizenship, our moral underpinnings (that is, condemning criminals and being angry that someone moved from say, Puerto Rico to prey upon us here in the mainland!): it is easy to lose one’s compass when up is down and in is out.

    The mainstream isn’t always wrong or evil or even stupid. But it is very prone to propaganda. But a loud hint here: SO IS THE NON-MAINSTREAM! Propaganda surrounds people. A sign that one is free is…listening to counter arguments or explanations.

    This is why everyone hates me. But god as my witness, when things evolve the way I predict, you will look back and say, ‘Oops! Now I see what she is talking about when Elaine explained how national socialism is the last resort of a dying empire!’

    Instead, people can run over to all the many leftist websites that have the ‘they are all stupid’ storyline and be rather smug about things. This saddens me no end. We must face reality here and the reality I see is a people not allying themselves with a flood of illegal or even legal aliens but rather, a huge upwelling of pure rage as people get pushed to the wall when our country finally goes bankrupt (hint: Weimar Germany).

    What is the left offering Americans who are citizens and who want jobs? More Obama-style spending? This seems to be the only option. If we opt for ‘protecting jobs’ then this means protectionism and it also means asserting sovereign control over who gets jobs here in the US (hint: not foreigners!) and who gets to control things here (hint: not dual citizens working to improve their homelands at our expense!). See?

  12. The EMS Church of National Sovereignty can look a lot like religion, too. There is an article on Raw Story today that reports that police spokesmen in LA and across the country are opposing Arizona’s new power, on the basis that it will drive a wedge of mistrust between the Latino community and police. This trust, so valuable to police, in the investigation of serious local crimes, is the product of decades of outreach and building bridges to these communities.

    Sovereignty is meaningless if it is not born out of social communication and building communities. Racist and reactionary edicts which are born out of bigotry and the implied superiority of one group, has historically reflected the dominant group’s determination to keep the upper hand, regardless of the social cost.

    The dominant group is most deserving of censure when it wants to erase history and hopes to steal and rub out other people’s cultural heritage. But they do this mainly to remove their crimes, the historical crimes, which their group still perpetuates on some level, by removing information like that from the daily news and from the classroom.

    The collusion of government with corporations is tens of thousands of times more significant, in terms of the coming collapse, than the presence of a few million immigrants who are here illegally. And you know this, Elaine. You have provided the evidence yourself on many occasions; and yet you continue to strain at this gnat.

    What are these illegal immigrants compared to decades of off-shoring? What candle can they hold economically (with mostly menial jobs?) compared to the banksters and Wall Street gang who have burned up trillions?–the conservative politicians who engineered NAFTA and ruined a million poor farmers in Mexico? Politicians on the take have methodically expunged the good jobs; and you wring your hands over the paltry earnings of illegal immigrants, who stand on street corners looking for day labor.

    You may call God as your witness all day long; but God’s agenda and your agenda may not coincide on each and every occasion. But I don’t think you have considered that possibility.

    Elaine, you are always lecturing people about their pet beliefs. What about yours?

  13. nah

    what really kills me is the cops… the COPS are talking to Holder because they DONT WANT TO ENFORCE THE LAW…
    .
    cops enforce the law… they do it to me like retards all day
    .
    but they just want to sign their name, NOT DO A JOB… put it this way the reason your a cop is cuz the county son not your “Gay Pride” COP
    .
    be like mexicans wont abide the rule of law in their districts IF THE COPS ENFORCE IT… cops are spineless… poor cops, a woman gets beet to death and the cops clean up the mess… guy gets shot cops clean up the mess… store gets robbed cops clean up the mess… family gets murderd at mcdonalds cops clean up the mess…. poor fucking cops
    .
    no real job for COPS i guess except pity for all the hard work
    .
    cops got no place in washingtonDC dictating terms to THE GOVERNOR
    .
    and as for mexico… yeah we have to start having man laws for the illigal imigration as amnesty hasnt worked, and companies actively work to subvert tax/wage/imigration law… but as i see it if the Governor of a State legislates a difficult solution to a difficult problem ‘HARD’ then cops should shut their yaps and get to work
    .
    http://www.cahrecords.com
    .
    the last people protecting inequality will be cops

  14. nah

    Copeland
    Copeland
    May 27, 2010 at 6:03 am
    .
    Sovereignty is meaningless if it is not born out of social communication and building communities. Racist and reactionary edicts which are born out of bigotry and the implied superiority of one group, has historically reflected the dominant group’s determination to keep the upper hand, regardless of the social cost.
    .
    .
    .
    simply put there is no UTOPIA boss… there is no upper hand… there is no reactionary absolvment of bad law… we are talking about WORK and its HARD to protect CITIZENS and their CITIZENSHIP…
    .
    if the only reason cops can talk to ‘lAtiNas’ is due to the ever respectful liars bargain… well maybe that just aint good enuf in the true aim of enforcement
    .
    laws are total bullshit by design you dont need to lie to yourself buddy… the job/status control is baked into the cake with fees/fines/mandates…
    .
    order is not window dressing…. its the law COP

  15. nah

    ug… cops… who in their rite mind cow tows to cops…
    .
    glorified tax enforcement troublemaker

  16. nah

    like mexicans are all uppity about cops
    .
    cops are maybe

  17. nah

    U.S. to suspend Arctic drilling: Alaska senator
    http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE64Q0WP20100527
    .
    LOL 5000′ under the sea 5000PSI under 20 atmoshperes of water…. AND -40F….
    .
    the new normal is outer space
    .
    there is still cheap energy… possibly oil should be ever more a reserve as it is and will remain “irreplaceable”

  18. nah

    MADONNA is being lined up as the saviour of telly show American Idol.
    http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/showbiz/bizarre/usa/2985965/Madonna-is-being-lined-up-to-judge-American-Idol.html
    And the Queen Of Pop tops Fuller’s wish list to take the music mogul’s place on the panel
    .
    would rather see her tude’ anyways… like last girlfriend was listening to madona… and im like whoa, thats like instructional female ideas ‘to myself of coarse’… never noticed after all these years mandona-ah
    .

  19. Nah,

    This is not that difficult.

    A sclerotic, aging, obsessively republican, oh-so-very-white, racist leadership in Arizona is terrified that a naturally occurring demographic shift, will put them out of power one day; and these same uber-conservatives, quaking in their bigotry, will live to see the less conservative brown people holding more public offices in Arizona.

    COPS of course are not angels; but they have snapped to the fact that the aging generation of conservative neanderthals in Arizona are willing to make life a lot more dangerous for said COPS, if this will extend the entrenched political powers for even a few seconds more.

    ΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩ

    ELAINE; See how you fall into racism yourself? You actively lust for an end to this ‘sclerotic, aging…’ part of the population. I will note that the leftist media and spokespeople are OK with no Protestants on the Supreme Court, for example. As for ‘less conservative brown people’ guess what?

    The Catholic Mexican community is NOT a revolutionary force for liberalism. Hint: go look at that country! You call the citizens of Arizona ‘neanderthals’ and I bet you would love to call them ‘insects’ or ‘people who should be eliminated’ too. This is very sad and illustrates exactly what I am talking about.

    If you imagine these neanderthal sclerotic CITIZENS you hate so much retaliate in kind and decide you are not human, either (clearing throat: calling people names implying that they are not homo sapiens is exactly the sort of racism I am talking about all the time) decide that YOU are not human due to your political beliefs, watch out!

    This is NOT a ‘naturally occurring demographic shift’, this is an INVASION. As for immigrants taking only lowly jobs, guess what? Many, many Americans can’t get these lowly jobs and have….NO JOBS AT ALL. The black community has been kept afloat by welfare but our economic condition is now going to make that increasingly impossible.

    As for these illegals going for lowly jobs, I made my living in construction for many years. Wages there have been cut by nearly 50% due directly to illegal aliens flooding this market and this includes European aliens overstaying student visas, etc. I used to make around $25 an hour and now make less than $15 an hour. Indeed, ALL jobs are going down, not up except for certain elitist positions. Are you happy with this? Tell me, please.

  20. Igneous

    The problem with left wing politics is it has come to be defined as anything that isn’t facist. Unfortunately this is hard to do because facism partly originates from socialism. Mussolini was himself a socialist and Hitler talked about socialising the German people. Since facism has a militant nationalist underpinning leftists see nationalism as being facist and are scared of it.

    Socialism the traditional economic version is very nationalistic . What leftists don’t understand is that the facist nationalism is militant.

    Anyway that’s my understanding

  21. emsnews

    This is due to the harsh fact that if you build a society that takes care of its own people, a flood of outsiders will rush in to exploit this. Fascists are like the Israeli Jews: to keep control of this force, they have very great border restrictions coupled with denying basic services and civil rights to minorities within the state. The dominant population chases out all ‘others’ and hog these social services for their own ethnic groups.

    Support for welfare during the Great Depression and afterwards was VERY high. But when the Civil Rights Act passed, these welfare services had to go to blacks who were denied these services previously. Hence the rise of the ‘Cadillac Welfare Queens’ which everyone knew was ‘black’ without being told.

    Socialism works only with strong borders. Recently I highlighted an article in Steve Forbes’ right wing publication where he advises US middle class people to retire to EUROPEAN countries where they would get much better social services! But he doesn’t want this here at home!!!!

    Europe just fell off the economic cliff. They will fight off any Americans seeking to move there and be supported by European workers paying into social service systems. This is inevitable.

    Many leftists believe, if we all are the same level, we won’t have this problem. But that is utopia. And frankly, thanks to a huge out of control birth situation in many second and third world countries such as Africa, much of South America and places like India, the low birth first world countries will be flooded with economic refugees for the foreseeable future.

  22. ilex

    And frankly, thanks to a huge out of control birth situation in many second and third world countries such as Africa, much of South America and places like India, the low birth first world countries will be flooded with economic refugees for the foreseeable future.

    Maybe that all works out at some point though it is sure to be a painful process. Most rich nations have falling birth rates. So we get ‘fill in’ from poor nations. Then those women are exposed to better education and birth control and their birth rate drops.

    If we didn’t have a crap load of complications on board that might eventually lead to equilibrium. Better to get moving now on shipping out birth control and other medical care to the poorer countries.

    If humans as a group were sane and thoughtful we could probably raise the living standards for the bottom third of the planet with just the money we are pouring down the black holes of war and finance.

  23. emsnews

    Correct. But of course, what is the ideal population level? This is a pressing question. As for people not having lots of babies when they come to the socialistic nations, um….go look at people on welfare.

    There is money in making babies. And of course, they get to be part of the permanent underclass but they really don’t mind this all that much because they can make extra money via illegal drug dealing, etc.

  24. Dibbles

    Hold on there Copeland,
    Some of those “neanderthal sclerotic CITIZENS” include my aging father and wife. There is nothing neanderthal about them. They’ve worked, voted, paid taxes, abided by laws, and lived frugally all their live. Now you play God and decide that they are not as deserving to live in their communities, have adequate medical services as they once had, or feel safe in their homes because illegals are presenting a “naturally occurring demographic shift”. At what point do legal, lawful, civically engaged American citizens – even those awful, white, elderly Americans – deserve some sort of representation by a state and federal government they’ve been funding all their lives? (Many multi-generational hispanic Americans want some protection too.)

    Two wrongs don’t make a right. Corporate malfeasance does not justify allowing illegals to displace Americans from jobs and a way of life that many have sacrificed to protect for many, many generations.

    Feel free to move to Mexico. I’ve been there many times. The Mexican population deserves far better than its’ own government allows. Stop making U.S. citizens scape-goats and remedy for Mexico’s corrupt oligarchic system.

  25. Dibbles

    One other thing Copeland,

    “police spokesmen in LA and across the country are opposing Arizona’s new power”

    Who cares?! LA is a neurotic, corrupt shithole. They can’t even clean-up their own backyard. It’s certainly not their job to protect and serve lawful Arizonans – “even old, sclerotic CITIZENS”
    …thank God.

  26. One is wise to ask what is sovereign and who is sovereign as rights are exercised out of sovereignty.

    Let me ask: is the individual sovereign?

    Are the states sovereign entitites? It looks to me that states rights have gone bye-bye; they are a principle of a bygone era. In Washington DC and in Arizona, President Obama is now sovereign, his will, his way and his word is the law of the land. We are living in the era of global governance, when a crisis arises in a geographical region, finance leaders and state leaders meet in summit and announce policy, mechanisms, and rules that define one’s rights. The precedent has been set by both President Bush and now President Obama, that when a crisis emerges, the President can militarize an area to secure and stabilize it militarily. As greater crises develope and become more severe, I expect a world leader, a Sovereign, and a world banker, a Seignior, to emerge, fulfilling the call of Timothy Geither for unified regulation of banking globally as related in James Politi and Gillian Tett Financial Times article NY Fed Chief In Push For Global Bank Framework.

    Personally I believe that God and His will are sovereign; and that in eternity past, He foresaw all that would happen and is happening, and is simply letting things proceed along a pre-established course.

  27. EMS:

    I was just curious–was this fella, this foreigner, arrested in connection with a stolen car, that you’re apparently so enraged with (“arrested for a f–king crime”!), I was wondering, has he been tried in a court of law by a jury of his peers? I know you take such stock in sovereignty. Do you have as much regard for due process of law, not only for OUR kind, but for THOSE people, as well?

    Do you ever think about just taking a break now and then? Taking a breather? Let’s see: The right’s all wrong; the Hispanic school children are wrong for wanting to take a course that excites them. And of course, the lefties are all wrong. They all hate their country, and want it to fail. Yeah, you bet, I’m just sitting here cheering for the way the banks failed and ripped us off. And boy, I just love watching my country slide off a cliff. And I can’t tell you how happy it makes me watching this mammoth tragedy unfold in the Gulf; yes, I literally stand up and cheer every time I see another pelican brought in blackened with oil. God, do I love failure! And the only one who seems to be right is li’l ol’ EMS, with her sovereignty fetish, even, apparently, as she herself insists, with God standing by her side, witnessing how right she is, and winking all the way–yes, at least there’s two who have some insight to the Truth.

    I guess the point is –is it possible, churning out this stuff day after day, hour upon hour, as constant and relentless as the crude spewing out in the Gulf–to get perhaps a little too full of oneself? To take oneself too seriously? Is it possible, do you think? I recommend a day or two–nah, shoot, let’s be bold. How about a full week off–a cabin in the far off woods where there’s no infernal computer, where all you hear is the burble of creekwater and the lone wolf howling at night. No cheating now! Can you do it? Can you actually not look at a computer screen for a full week?

    Bet you can’t do it.

    Joan of Arc died in the dark.

  28. emsnews

    The guy wanted to be bailed out. The ONLY way you get bailed out is, you have proof you won’t skip out on going to trial. I hope you understand what this means. I find it all rather funny that you hate being a vital member (citizen) of a sovereign country.

    Oh well, people have to learn the hard way, what this all means.

  29. No, sorry, wrong again. I don’t hate being a citizen of my country, I’m just not as obsessed about it as you seem to be, nor am I as inclined to spit on and revile foreigners as it appears you are, nor am I as in love with the cop power as you when they’re going after the ones you think they should be targeting.

    As I observe your anger at this (alleged) auto thief and at so many others driven here largely by the combined policies of their government and ours, I can’t help but think of one particular little smidgen of folks whose criminal bungling right off our shores has just caused the greatest environmental act of terrorism in history, aided and abetted by our own Secretary of the Interior, which, before it’s over, will probably have wrecked the lives and livelihoods of more people and wreaked more destruction and death per square mile than all your evil Mexican hordes put together. But I don’t hear you say much about THOSE particular “immigrants” (Brits). At any rate, I’m sure you must be elated to know that while that tragedy is unfolding, our President is at this moment sending troops to defend our border. Only 1,200. Well, what a shame McCain didn’t win, huh? Then it would be 6,000 or more. How disappointing.

    Well, perhaps one of these days, I’ll get my priorities in order, as you clearly have. And then, I’ll see the light.

    ΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩ

    ELAINE: Note how I give historical or international facts and you call this ‘spitting on’ people. And I never said I wanted Brits to do anything here, far from it. Reading comprehension is very difficult when you are trigger happy with your rage. And the question is, why are you upset about BP? Are they screwing up our country? Well….sovereignty is great, when we get it back, eh?

  30. It is downright comical to be accused of racism for pointing a barb in the direction of the ruling class in Arizona. They have more than sharp tongues to unleash; but instead have serious political power at their disposal to bring misery to their fellow citizens.

    And I notice there’s not a peep out of EMS either about the federal ICE goons who apparently have carte blanche. But Elaine seems remarkably tolerant of them as they play the role of bullies. And in Arizona, that crusty old sadist, Sheriff Joe Arpaio, is 77 years old, putting up his prisoners in tents in Arizona’s extreme hot weather; and there’s Governor Brewer who is a true exemplar of white skin privilege . It is clear they belong to an aging leadership and a mindset that feels entitled to lord it over the same people their ancestors lorded over.

    EMS Church of National Sovereignty, no comment on that, only counter-accusations.
    In fact, Elaine , all I can get out of of you is counter-accusations. You seem to want the problem of the illegals solved, but are unwilling to take the responsibility for the human and social cost, if you should somehow get what you wish for.

    I didn’t call them insects or any extreme stuff that Elaine implies; but I am suggesting that they resemble the older generation of the Jim Crow South, who never did, or never would reform themselves, alter their views, or change with the times, enough to admit that black folk are human.

  31. And wasn’t it you, Elaine, in an older post, who referred to poor slum dwellers who throw their garbage out the window, as human cockroaches?

  32. emsnews

    Have you ever lived in the slummier parts of NYC? Ahem. Of course, everyone calls people names! But when I was doing it, I was justifiably angry about people breeding rats and cockroaches that infested our entire neighborhood. A good reason for any housewife to cuss like a sailor!

    On the other hand, you call people who are not throwing garbage, various names because they want to protect their own country. Now that is truly strange. But you can’t see how bizarre that is.

  33. Dibbles,

    With respect.

    What I am implying in the paragraph clearly, is that the Arizona leadership (your dad and wife don’t belong to the leadership), the leadership mind you, are oppressors.

    You on the other hand wrote: “Now you play God and decide that they are not as deserving to live in their communities, have adequate medical services as they once had, or feel safe in their homes because illegals are presenting a “naturally occurring demographic shift”.”

    I am not saying white citizens (old or not) don’t deserve to live in their communities. I’m not play God. I am observing that the leadership is racially prejudiced. The leadership is responsible, mind you, without bringing Dad into it. Elaine has gone completely off the rails, throwing the accusation of eliminationist rhetoric at me, which is personal slander, and reckless distortion; which she holds to, more and more, when she has the weaker argument.

    None of that can be extrapolated from my comment.

    Not that I believe it will change your views, Dibbles, but if you look up the article at Raw Story, you will find other cop agencies or spokesmen, are in agreement with the guys in LA.

  34. Thank you Elaine for responding in the last comment in a way that feels more like dialogue. We have been hurling insults and accomplishing less and less. It was a hurtful insult for you to bring up the eliminationist thing; if you knew me a little better through dialogue there would be considerably less misunderstanding.

    I am afraid of where the demands you make to solve the immigration problem will lead, and whether enforcement will be turned over to agencies that don’t seem to recognize the constitutional right of persons in this country.

    Consider this an olive branch. And let’s try to dial back the temperature of this argument and look more for light.

    I have to leave the computer for awhile; but let’s continue the discussion again.

  35. emsnews

    The ‘immigration problem’ will be solved very roughly if we don’t get jobs back to this country! Period.

    It is a distraction since the jobs lost to illegal immigrants is minor compared to the zillions of jobs that emigrated out of the US. Most people can’t see that ‘free trade’ means trading our jobs for cheap goods and this is a one way street to hell.

    This is very sad, for people here will attack each other based on race and ethnic identity rather than stop the free trade. This will rapidly turn the US into a total hell hole.

    Now….think very carefully, my blog has stressed for the last five years, we must protect our nation from all of this or we die.

    And I fear, liberals will not be playing much an influential role in all of this since many liberals hate protectionism of any sort! Note how people attack me for not crying on behalf of a car thief! Wow! Great way to win over hearts and minds!

    And this is the problem: various minorities do not outnumber the increasingly angry majority. Instead of dismissing the majority which has now been totally cut out of representation in the Supreme Court, for example, you should worry about doing this. It will definitely rouse something very ugly.

    But then, my warnings are not appreciated. People want ideology. They want me to declare that it is a great, good idea to get rid of the majority of Americans. Then we get a paradise?

    Ahem! This exactly mirrors the far right! The only difference is, which ethnic group is the ‘good’ one and which is the ‘evil, non-human’ ethnic groups! The concept of ‘citizenship’ will die on both the right and the left. This is why Rand Paul’s refusal to support the Civil Rights Act was so horrible: he has zero sympathy for the travails blacks went through during the odious Jim Crow years.

    Winning over the ‘Protestant Whites’ who are about 50% of the population is life and death. Locking them out and telling them to drop dead is not an option.

  36. Oh. BP hasn’t screwed up anything. Hm. . . Well, heck. . . If it’s that important. . .to be right. . . if it means that much to you. . . well, I know there’s a full moon out–I see it out there right now, maybe you see it, too. . . and they say that can sometimes effect our thinking. . . I don’t know if that’s true or not. But if it is, then it’s probably me that’s screwed up. . . But I see you work pretty hard at this, you obviously put in long hours, reading and writing. . . and there’s no question you’re vastly better read than I am or probably will ever be. . . you’re a much sharper thinker–and I mean that sincerely. . . and you’re up there safe and sound where it’s just you and your thoughts and your computer screen. . . and being the kind of simple-minded cuss that I am, I guess I kind of wonder if you’d find it quite as easy to stand up in a room full of Louisiana shrimp fishermen, with their wives and their children, and say that–out loud. . .where they could all hear it. . . .

    But okay. If it’s that important. Sure, why not. Mea Culpa.

    Peace.

  37. emsnews

    Huh? Debates are very difficult when one side has a severe reading comprehension ability. Where on earth did I say that????

  38. May 27, Elaine: “And the question is, why are you upset about BP? Are they screwing up our country?”

  39. Dibbles

    Copeland @ 12:45 am

    Arizona laws are created and enforced by legislators whom Arizonan voters chose to represent their interests. White, red, brown voters. Arizona citizens. It’s not about race. It’s about illegal invasion and willful negligence by our federal government to secure Arizona’s southern border. Arizona state has an obligation to look out for and protect the legal citizens of that state regardless of color.

    Arizona is not in L.A. Perhaps L.A.P.D. doesn’t require literacy tests for its’ employees otherwise the cops offering their opinions would know how irrelevant those opinions are in Arizona. Their relations with L.A. citizens and neighborhoods is not the concern or responsibility of Arizona lawmakers or enforcement authorities.

    Perhaps those L.A. cops with too much time on their hands could quit and save lots of L.A. taxpayers money. L.A. is facing its’ own severe budget shortfall, after all.

    Opinions are like anuses. Everyone has one.

  40. Wonder why I get the feeling the biggest sweeps of Hispanics will take place around election cycles? And I wonder why I get the feeling the net won’t be able to distinguish between a good fish. . .and a bad fish? Nor will it particularly care.

  41. melponeme_k

    Rule of law still exists for immigrants. I sat a trial and saw it with my own eyes. They all had legal representation and had a trial with a jury of peers. I was one of them. One even completed his citizenship requirements, however he did his best to throw that down the drain. And another was in danger of being deported but he still turned state witness.

    These men were criminals but they still believed in our trial system.

    When they stop believing in that system is when we have to worry. And it looks to me as if the people making the run for our border in the south don’t. They only know their own personal problems and they have thrown out the concept of nation states because their need trumps it. Why else would they be so willing to abandon their own country to jackals? And they care little for this country since they see no need to attempt even minor requirements to work here.

    When people throw out the concept of nationality and the nation, it is during a collapse. Then all nations cease to exist. It didn’t take very long for the Roman Empire to collapse totally. It is a prime example of what is happening now. Desperate people making runs for borders. Its ironic that our Founders studied Rome’s collapse, tried to protect us from just such an outcome but it is happening nevertheless.

    Elaine is right, human beings don’t like reality. We like dreams and illusions instead.

  42. emsnews

    I am 100% for good laws, good law enforcement and civil rights. Always have been this way. And this is what we are losing: a sense of what is legal and why it is legal and this is due also to government corruption as individuals and corporations and alien governments (AIPAC) warp our political system and create a mess.

  43. the fool on the hill

    Well, if I am considered part of the “people attack me for not crying on behalf of a car thief” group then at least I can be relieved to know that any communication failure is not my fault in this case.

    If so, I will give the benefit of the doubt that the mischaracterization was not malicious.

    Of course, that would imply a ‘reading comprehension disability’ issue, which is something all humans are prone to when interpreting the thoughts of others. Language is an imperfect tool, and like fire, must be used with care.

    Of course, there are those that think an appropriate use of fire is to intentionally incinerate entire cities.

  44. the fool on the hill

    Criminals do not ‘believe in our trial system’.

    They hope to benefit from the heavy burden the government must meet to comply with Constitutional due process and thereby escape punishment.

    In theory, the risk of this happening is part of the “price of freedom”, i.e., not allowing the government to lock away anyone it sees fit on whatever pretenses it can slop together.

  45. Ayn Whitehouse

    The left is doing this? Elaine, do you need reminding that it was GW Bush who angered his white suburban base by proposing immigration reforms aimed at getting the US megacorps their cheap labor? “The left” may be taking the blame, as usual for the immigration mess, but there is nothing leftist about the demand for bargain rate labor at WalMart, at McDonalds, at ADM, at all the mega-slaughterhouses to name a few.

    In a way, the mega-corps win doubly again. They can continue to enjoy an inexhaustible supply of job-hungry labor, and they can pay their media shills to tar “the left” with the sticky blame.

    ΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩ

    ELAINE: I constantly harp on the fact that the GOP wanted illegal immigration so they could have semi-slave labor and of course, no bosses are arrested, only the workers they exploit.

    The problem here is simple: the GOP doesn’t promote illegals, or think they are a good thing in itself. That is, they don’t side with the illegals against the citizens. This is a tactical move on their part which the liberals fall for over and over again. Note how people got very riled when I suggested we secure our borders!

  46. melponeme: “rule of law still exists for immigrants. . .” Yes, you’re right. The rule of law exists for immigrants. And according to our rules of law, cops in Arizona can stop anyone and demand paperwork if they so much as suspect a person of being undocumented. Citizens can sue any cop they think isn’t being zealous enough in this kind of work. According to the laws for immigrants, I.C.E. has the stated ability and willingness to disappear people. With people thus put beyond the reach of the courts, and I.C.E. unaccountable to anyone, it’s not easy to know how much prisoner abuse is occurring, but we know it is. People can be rounded up, shipped to holding facilities far from where they’re arrested, detained indefinitely, separated from their families, their children, or simply have their children jailed with them. And this is the kind of thing we will see increasingly as more well-meaning very nice people sign on to the notion of “sovereignty” at any cost. Germany in the late thirties also had the “rule of law.” The deep South had the “rule of law”–Jim Crow. Being a cheerleader for “the law” and the police power is nothing particular to crow about. It is the first choice of politicians and a jittery populace looking for easy solutions to very complex problems. Anyone with even a passing knowledge of our penal system, and of police misbehavior in general, from Mississippi to the Bronx, or from L.A. to Arizona, should try to keep that in mind. Of course, that becomes more difficult to do if you’re safely segregated from the targeted groups.

  47. Dibbles

    Grayson
    “And according to our rules of law, cops in Arizona can stop anyone and demand paperwork if they so much as suspect a person of being undocumented. ”

    This is false. They cannot stop anyone without due cause. “Suspecting” is not verifiable due cause. A tail light missing is, drunk, driving or speeding away is.

    I.C.E. is a federal program. Why on earth – with all the federal lawsuits flying against Arizona – would the state give a hoot about cooperating with the federal government at this point?

  48. Dibbles:

    “They cannot stop anyone without due cause.”

    And if you believe that’s the way it works, then you have a far more idyllic picture of life than reality, history, and race relations in America would seem to suggest.

  49. Dibbles

    Grayson,

    I’ve been around for a long time. I suspect longer than you, judging by your insistence that Arizonans have something more sinister intended for illegals than just trying to protect themselves and property. I pay property taxes in Arizona and have heard their concerns for years. Those concerns are legitimate and shared across racial lines.

    Painting everyone with one big, broad brush based on a few highly publicized bad apples over the years suggests to me that it is you who has the more distorted vision.

  50. I didn’t say Arizonans don’t have legitimate concerns or a right to protect their property. I never said their motives were sinister. But, like it or not, plenty of bad and quite sinister things can, and very often do, get started by people (usually in the majority) who may have the best of intentions, but who either aren’t aware or just not all that concerned with the implications of their choices. A majority of folks in your state, for example, chose George W. Bush for President, not once, but twice, which seems to suggest at least an openness on their part to fairly draconian policies–preemptively invading other countries on the basis of lies, detaining people for years without due process, extraordinary renditions, torture, extra-judicial killings, and the like.

    ΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩ

    ELAINE: The majority voted for Obama and got…extraordinary renditions, torture, extra-judicial killings, war escalations, chasing down and punishing whistle blowers, etc, etc, etc. And many of the voters who did this voted against Bush. This is NOT a ‘left right’ issue, these things are imperialism where we are VERY interfering and draconian and demanding people obey us overseas…while at home, Obama and the DNC think we dare not ask people for IDs!

  51. Dibbles

    Grayson,

    My state did not vote for Schrub in 2000 or 2004.

    Jumping to presumptuous conclusions again…

  52. Dibbles,

    Ah, very cute. You had said you pay property taxes in Arizona. We were talking about Arizona, but of course, you knew what I meant. And you certainly are aware that Arizona went for Bush twice. But I wouldn’t want to presume too much.

  53. Elaine,

    Q: Hm. Who did the majority in Arizona vote for in the previous two elections? Or does that not count?

    Q: So we shouldn’t be draconian overseas, but we SHOULD be here? Pard me, guess I’m having a hard time keeping up with you guys.

  54. emsnews

    You are confused because you can’t believe me when I talk about ‘citizenship’ and who is part of a country and why imperialism is bad.

    I suggest you reorient yourself. Seriously.

  55. Draconian methods abroad produce draconian abuses at home in the long run; and this is the style of empire. The brutality visited on foreigners comes back home. We have the new paramilitaries, the 9/11 security octopus, the rapid federalizing of local police against political protest, the data mining, the new presidential fiat to sign death warrants on citizens, along with the raw power to declare people enemy combatants and disappear them. And we have accumulated evidence of the secrecy that these new agencies require, and that they are not held to account for the things they do.

    Empire kills democracy. It kills it abroad and by a process of attrition eventually destroys every vestige of it at home. Chalmers Johnson wrote about this: a people must choose between empire and democracy, because they cannot sustain both. Empire and democracy are incompatible.

    Chalmers Johnson warned us in the strongest terms about the danger of “military Keynesianism”, by which those who build and maintain empire, virtually place their own country under military occupation. A country ends up on economic life-support because it becomes dependent on enormous outlays of cash to keep the military juggernaut going.

  56. There’s a article by Stephen C. Webster, on today’s Raw Story, where Webster describes Oliver Stone’s recent interview with former Argentine president, Nestor Kirchner.

    “Kirchner confided to Stone that the former U.S. president [G.W. Bush] once directly told him “The best way to revitalize the economy was war.””

    Kirchner expanded on this; talking about the discussions he had once had with Bush in Monterrey. When Kirchner suggested that something along the lines of a Marshall Plan might be a good idea for US policy, the US president’s mood suddenly changed.

    “And [Bush] became angry. He said the Marshall Plan is a crazy idea of the Democrats. He said the best way to revitalize the economy is war, and that the United States has grown stronger with war.”

  57. emsnews

    Copeland, did you know that the government caught over 650 aliens in ONE DAY trying to cross illegally into Arizona just this week????

    And you can bet, this wasn’t the entire number of people trying to sneak in, either. Do the math. This is a catastrophe.

  58. Elaine, I take your point about the border problem. But the military resources, necessary to do an adequate job of halting this migration, have been flung to the four corners of the earth. It’s possible there will soon be a very ugly civil war in Mexico; and consequently, the number of National Guard we would need to check this flow of people, is not presently available.

    A large number of Mexicans have died while attempting to make the journey across very harsh country along Arizona’s border. And to patrol this vast expanse, Obama’s 1,200 troops, or McCain’s suggestion of 6,000, represent just a drop in bucket, with respect to what it would take to stop this flow of people.

    We do not really disagree on this point about controlling the border.

    But our area of disagreement exists because the problem of infiltration through the border, and the problem of uprooting Hispanics, who may or may not be illegals, are two very different problems.

    The area in which we disagree is fraught with danger for our country.

    It is very dangerous, to begin with, to give the sinister agencies of our homeland outfits their carte blanche. The federalizing of local police, under the wing of well- funded police state goons, who have totally broken the bonds of accountability to the Constitution and Common Law, is a blueprint for the utter ruin of this country. It would mark the beginning our descent into that “hell hole” you are so worried about.

    You must not feed such beasts by tasking them to run dragnets through the Hispanic community. This is why the new law in Arizona is so dangerous, because it is the tip of the iceberg, representing a willingness to do this. It was not for nothing that this Homeland Police State was built. It was built to control the domestic front and shape the domestic scene, when the criminal policies of the State itself, finally drives angry citizens into the streets. But it can also be tinkered with to run racial pogroms and round up political dissidents.

    Power must be distributed fairly in local communities. Wise policies in Arizona, and other states bordering Mexico, must look at the varying situations of people who came from Mexico in the past, before approaching the complex question of their amnesty and legitimate paths to citizenship. Some will be deported; but this must happen only in the context of transparent, judicial processes.

    The Constitution will crumble to dust if the empire and its harsh methods are turned upon our own community. Will we be placed under occupation by such a power? And what kind of citizens will we be then?

  59. Elaine,

    Copeland voices precisely my own concerns and more eloquently than I could do it myself.

    At the same time, I have a great deal of admiration for your ideas and opinions, or I wouldn’t keep coming back. One thing you have succeeded in is provoking me to take very seriously your ideas about sovereignty. I, too, agree that we need some remedy or remedies for the problem of immigration, which is really, as I see it, a symptom of many problems and ruinous policies over many years that–again, as I see it–are really not the fault of the people you now seem prepared to go after with such ferocity. I’m not saying that’s your intention, or that–as Dibbles accuses me of saying–you have some sinister motive. I’m suggesting that very often when people lock on to a system of belief, as you appear to have done, as a cure-all for all that plagues them, and then insist that everyone else fall into lockstep with them, that historically, we’ve seen where this can sometimes lead. For instance, it seems, you have decided that liberals who don’t see it your way are somehow lacking in patriotism, hate their country, would like to see it fail. And that leads me to wonder how your brand of nationalism differs from the nationalism on the far right, which is also quite busy accusing liberals of the same thing.

    As for the rest of it, for such things as Copeland outlines, and which I agree is happening, and will only worsen under a harsher regime of laws. . .well, I hope I’m wrong. I hope Dibbles is right, that the cops will all keep their heads, that they will only stop people for the most legitimate reasons, that they will all behave admirably, with the utmost fairness, treating all alike, white, brown or black.

    Meanwhile, you’ll excuse me, I hope, if I look elsewhere for something to bet on. As things now stand, a cop who merely suspects a Latino of being an undocumented immigrant can lock that person up. You could be perfectly legitimate, but jailed for not having your papers with you, and fined as much as $500 for not having them. And you could be held indefinitely. (Let’s see how long your job lasts if that happens.)
    Teachers are required to keep lists of children whom they suspect may be undocumented immigrants. Day laborers are especially singled out. Under the new law, in some cases, merely accepting a job offer is illegal. “Communication by a gesture or a nod” in accepting a work offer can be grounds for arrest.

    I believe we’re going to see things turn very ugly in Arizona, as we’re already seeing in other places where the laws are nowhere near this draconian. I think the net will scoop up good and bad alike, and the machinery of the law will not unduly concern itself with which is which. We may see people disappeared. I think we’ll see a rise in hate crimes, because I’m sure you know–I think you know–laws like this tend to act as permission. And with all due respect to the good citizens of Arizona, I predict that the dominant group, if not the majority, as is often the case when their fear is excited, will not find it too much beyond their comfort zone to look the other way.

    With sincere regards to you and apologies to Dibbles.

  60. emsnews

    Um, when I was a HIPPIE we were ALWAYS stopped ALL THE EFFING TIME and the cops would do all sorts of things! And I am ‘white’! My god, of course, there are ‘bad cops’ but look, when literally several thousand aliens invade Arizona a week, what on earth do you want us to do????

    Seriously, your lack of empathy for the people suffering from this flood of illegal border jumpers is peculiar and EXACTLY illustrates while liberals will not be asked to save America when things go very wrong. Far from it.

    This is what I call, a key issue. We have many discomforts when things go wrong but to simply stand by idle when things are going very wrong leads people to seek out real leaders. And no, these illegal non-citizens who invade our country cannot take all our jobs or fill our cities! This is FATAL to our nation! Fatal!

    Clearing this up will be very trying and will not be pleasant but the alternative is what? Total failure? Wow. Nope. You might want to give up but others will be motivated to not give up and guess who will prevail in the end?

    Of course, we need our damn troops to come home. We are being invaded. But I see virtually no liberals saying this loudly. Not at all. Not even slightly.

  61. emsnews

    PS: I pay literally thousands of dollars in school taxes every year. Of course, we should note which children are illegal aliens and deport them. Each one costs me a lot of money and of course, all taxpayers feel this expense very much and it is one of the big reasons many are increasingly irritated by the flood of illegal aliens and their children.

    We could, again, sit idle and let this continue but how much are supporters of free roaming mobs of aliens going to pay? I seriously doubt they will want to pay very much and I suspect liberals who are OK with floods of foreigners coming here are not paying much in taxes and perhaps are renters.

    Well, I own property and nearly all of my local schools are funded by myself and other property owners. Again: this is a serious issue with us, not a wishy-fishy one.

  62. The thing is, Elaine, I think you’re wrong about who “the mob” is.

    The mob always rises from the dominant culture to strike the weak and less defended. This country has seen mobs alright, and they’ve often been lynch mobs driven by hysteria and bigotry. It is not, and there never has been–except in a fantasy–any question of free-roaming mobs of aliens. Such “mobs” are the product of fantasy; and the other kind has shown up again and again our history.

    You astound me when you describe as FATAL the presence of 11 million illegals in a nation of 309 million people. And you further ignore the fact that their levels of contribution to this society are not the same; not all of them are standing on street corners, owning nothing but the clothes on their back, looking for day labor. Only a small fraction of them belong to the criminal class. Many who came in years past even pay income and property taxes.

    When you write “Clearing this up will be very trying and will not be pleasant but the alternative is what?” I shudder to think what you mean.

    I was a hippie once too, and remember what it’s like to be arrested; which makes even curiouser the context in which you use of the word “empathy”. What? Is there also no empathy for minorities who are rounded up in dragnets?

    No, clearly not; and I am surprised by you every time you argue your case on this subject.

    What about children, arrested with their parents, by I.C.E. goons? What about US citizens who are sometimes deported because they get no “show cause” hearings?

    You seem content to let the apes who run legally unaccountable sweeps have their day; you seem to be unbothered when anyone mentions the up-and-running police state that can disappear people into unmarked storage rooms, across our suburbia, places that have no signs that mark them as police agencies or federal offices, open for business.

    Maybe you think the left will stand for it, as fascists and blind nationalists whip up the old lynch mentality. But you would be wrong.

  63. Wow, my God, Missy, I wish you could hear yourself. I tried to offer some reason, tried to meet you half-way. But you’re really not interested in that. By the way, I pay thousands in taxes, myself, not that that matters, since you have us all painted with the same brush. And now you have us lacking empathy and weak, as well. I feel sorry for you. You’re a true believer, blinded by your own fear. So I expect you’ll join the mob or else look discretely away while the mob does its work. Which calls up a line from somewhere–I suppose you’d brand him another liberal weakling: “What you do to the least of them, you do to me.”

  64. Dibbles

    For Grayson and Copeland,
    I’m back from a nice week-end over in the desert and see that this thread of discourse is still running. I’ll add one more contribution, then throw in the towel.

    The title to this entry is “Mexico Has Very Draconian Immigration Laws”. True. Ask survivors entering southern Mexico illegally from Central America, trying to find their way to El Norte.

    The U.S. has good immigration laws which the Executive branch of the federal government refuses to enforce, and has done so for some time. Their solution is to talk about “immigration reform” which always seems to mean doing nothing, or rewarding illegal employers and giving amnesty – encouraging more illegal immigration.

    FACT: the largest land-holder in Arizona is our U.S. federal government. The second largest land-holders are native American tribes. A distant third is the state of Arizona itself. That leaves about 17% of land in Arizona available for private ownership. In other words, the population of Arizona – legal “old white” citizens (retirees), legal multi-generational hispanic citizens, native Americans, and an increasingly poor state citizenry of various ethnic origin – is left to struggle with the hardships caused by illegal invasion, thanks to neglect and disregard by the federal government. A decimated economy – due to the housing bubble and the willful obstruction of the Bush administration to enforce many laws including banking and real estate – has left the state so cash strapped that it’s actually considered selling their capitol building.

    Some of Arizona’s troopers and other law-enforcement are “brown”. Tribal police are “red”. The state of Arizona is being sued by the federal government on any type of argument that the Executive branch can conjure up. Why? Why not just protect and defend Arizona’s southern border with Mexico as is it’s obligation to the citizens of Arizona and all U.S. citizens? Arizona’s new law simply gives Arizona the lawful authority to enforce already existing federal law. Legislators also took care to deal with the issue of racial profiling. They are trying to continue functioning as a state government and serve its’ citizens with drastic budget cuts. Speculation of sinister intent doesn’t serve Arizonans’ immediate needs.

    State and federal park rangers have been murdered in parks. Arizona citizens have had property damage and worse on their own properties. This crisis has been forming for quite some time. At what point must we acknowledge that protecting Arizonans’ life, liberty and property must be a priority for the state.

    Lest you think I’m insensitive to the potential for great harm to come to certain groups of people, I want to also mention that my step-father was Basque. He fought in Charles de Gaulle’s Underground and had first-hand experience with Nazi’s and fascism. Hitler’s ally, Franco was intent on genocide of the Basque people (indigenous Europeans). I don’t believe that this is a potential outcome of Arizona’s law. For my step-father and his friends, America was a nation of laws that upheld the preservation of property and personal protection for its’ citizens. Arizona is not contemplating genocide or fascism, but does deserve some of that protection now. Instead, so many on the far left are demonizing them. While there are always a few bad apples in any population, most Arizonans simply want the federal government – its’ disregard the impetus for the invasion – to do its’ job.

    As an aside – some of my own Mexican-American family and friends have voiced great appreciation that they are U.S. citizens when returning home from visiting relatives in Mexico. They aren’t disavowing their own ethnic heritage. And there is no question that life in Mexico is becoming miserable for its’ people. But the solution is not to make Arizona a dumping ground for lawless illegals so business can continue as usual. While most illegals are no doubt seeking safer, better lives, there is also increased criminal activity. Some in my family have expressed concern for themselves, their children, and neighbor family members of illegals due to reckless disregard for our own laws and customs – concerns of wife and child abuse, drug-dealing, property destruction and even worse. These are real and legitimate concerns for all of us regardless of color, even in conservative Arizona. E. pluribus unum.

    Sorry for such a lengthy post. As I mentioned at the start, this is my final input for this article.

  65. Well said. I really think we are in basic agreement. (Believe it or not!) And all I can say is I hope it all works out. And I do mean that.

    One thing that no one has mentioned in all of this, which I might voice here–since it’s my last post, as well: We seem to be entering, I hesitate to say the last phase of life on the planet, but perhaps something close to it. Let’s just say a chapter that promises to be rather unpleasant for all of us. I’m thinking, of course, about the tragedy in the Gulf, which I believe will trigger all kinds of problems, environmental, economic, you name it. We have nuclear armed Israeli subs off the coast of Iran; we have economic instability occurring everywhere, and just on and on. But this thing in the Gulf, this demon monster growing every day, which threatens to swallow us all. . . it seems to me this makes it a whole different ball game, now; and rather puts us all, finally, in the same boat, doesn’t it? So I guess the question is, how far, and for how long, shall we continue to take the madness of “this is ours, and that’s yours; you stay on your side of the line, we’ll stay on ours”?

    I suppose we could just continue on down this road right up to the finish. And yes, I’m aware we probably don’t have much choice. We’ve been doing it this way for so long, we’re probably incapable of doing it any other way. But the reality is that our planet is shrinking. The number of habitable places, the resources, the jobs, the food, the water–mainly, the water–but everything–is shrinking. The children that are born now–I look at babies and think: “You don’t have any idea what you’re in for.” But the same is true for any child born anywhere. And it seems like our selfishness, our greed, our grim determination to defend to the last our treasure, by any means, no matter who it harms, no matter whose lives may be uprooted and destroyed, just seems so hollow, especially in light of how much we ourselves have snatched and grabbed by force of arms from so many others weaker than ourselves over the last two centuries. I winced as I read Elaine’s angry tirade above, furious at the notion that some small slice of her precious money might be helping to educate some illegal Hispanic school children in her community, innocent of their crime though they may be. Which just struck me as so goddamn sad. Yet, I guess I don’t really blame her. After all, this is the system we’ve carved out for ourselves, isn’t it? The self-interest system, the greed system. All fear-based. All designed to close the heart. To stifle our better angels. Yes, carefully and perfectly designed to turn one group of people against another. And so it goes–everywhere. Is this to be our final legacy to one another? Is this how we will comport ourselves from here on, as the planet dies, each of us clinging to his or her pathetic little pile, raging and snapping at anyone who dares threaten it by asking for a small share? Will our generosity finally shrivel and burn out along with the earth? Will we simply be reduced to different tribes fighting over territory and dwindling resources?

    It seems to me that we can continue to make this all about us vs. them, haves vs. have-nots–and I think we can see pretty clearly by now how well that’s worked out! Or we could perhaps try to find some better way. I don’t know at this moment what that would be. But I imagine it would take some kind of evolutionary leap, some awakening that would cause us to snap out of this either/or, you or me, place, and realize that, now, more than ever, we’re just one broken humanity, struggling to keep body and soul together on a dying planet, and that finally, all we will have in that endeavor from here on out. . . is each other.

    Peace.

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