1896: The Gold Is Good and Silver Is Inflation Debate

ΩΩI am endlessly fascinated by the Great Depression of the 1890’s.  This was as difficult a time as the Great Depression of the 1930’s and the present Great Depression of 2010.  The debates are nearly identical only they are waged on slightly different territory but this doesn’t matter all that much since it is all about the strong currency versus devaluing the currency debates that have raged off and on, during eras that use ‘money’ since money was invented.  Nothing has changed in this debate.  It is always debtors who want debased currency versus savers who want a secure currency that is strong..

ΩΩChief in all of these debates is the fact that looms over all these fights happens to be military: that is, these depressions are often if not always somehow attached to war debts going bad.  That is, countries that go very deep into debt paying for recent wars or paying reparation after losing a war, usually skip out of this condition via going broke as a nation. This unleashes terrible social forces.  Sometimes a nation can go bankrupt several times before angry mobs kill the rulers doing this.  Generally speaking, the first step on the road to civil war or insurrections is the battle over debasing a currency to escape war debts or paying it all off and gaining a reputation for being a good credit risk which is usually the first step towards becoming a powerful credit granting empire such as we see today with China, for example.


ΩΩSo, time to hop into the New York Times machine to travel to that most interesting month of August, 1896.  The middle of that month is the keystone for subsequent events which led directly towards the Spanish American War and a sudden expansion of the American empire into Alaska and Hawaii as well as the Philippines, setting the stage for some of the nastiest battles in the Pacific half a century later.  Bryan, the silver tongued orator who was pro-inflation, swept his way into his Presidential candidacy at the Democratic convention.  This unleashed a flood of pro-gold, anti-inflation articles at the NYT.


ΩΩEven back then, the international trade powers headquartered on Wall Street were at odds with the bulk of the population in ‘fly over land’ which back then was rail road land with few really big ports at all outside of maybe San Francisco which sided with Manhattan on many of these issues concerning money and debt.  Remember that all of this happened before the Great Quake which sent San Francisco reeling.  NYC’s immigration policies allowed a flood of European poor to come into the city to swell the ranks of the underemployed thus keeping wages very low.  These people fleeing Europe’s Great Depression put severe pressure on pay scales in the US and this triggered another force that went against Wall Street big time: anti immigration groups rose up and tried desperately to shut down this flood of cheap labor from overseas.


ΩΩEnough—time to read the actual news from back then to get an idea as to how this debate unfolded: GOLD THE WORLD STANDARD.; Edward Atkinson’s Paper Before American Scientists.


ΩΩHAHAHA.  The science of money!  This amuses me since money is PURE MAGIC.  Yes, it is not anything really physical as we shall see later.  In 2008, I wrote a long article (all my stories are long) about how money works: Money Matters: Gold As Regulator, Gold As Libra

All the central bankers like this little trick. It puts in a ‘floor’ so interest rates for the ‘money’ cranked out by the central bank doesn’t ‘fall’…NO MATTER HOW MUCH MONEY THEY MAKE OUT OF THIN AIR. This is, of course, inflation money. But the ‘interest’ that ‘accrues’ hides the true nature of this inflation until, get this, it flows away from the Fed or central bank and moves OVERSEAS. Many central bankers do this already and what do we see?


GLOBAL INFLATION! Oopsie! This is a nice trick like all the others but in the bitter end, the chicks hatched this way always end up flying home again and dropping bird dung on someone’s bald head. I went about the web, looking at mainstream economists and their take on this. They think it ‘works’ since the consequences are not instantly visible. Yup. This sort of thinking characterizes our entire economic brainiac class. It is very hard to get them all to understand, they have an obligation to look into the future and foresee the ultimate outcomes of various choices and systems set up today. And to do this, we have to look at everything all the time, without exclusion.


ΩΩIt is a worthy read!  To this very day, we see illustrated how the Cave of Wealth and Death operates: 33 miners are trapped deep in the earth while seeking gold and silver so they could be ‘wealthy’ only these miners seldom get wealthy, they suffer, dig their own graves, so to speak or literally, and die, seeking life.


ΩΩThe fickle fates who determine which humans live or die know that we would often rather run into this deadly cave rather than live on the surface of the earth.  Or, worse, we force others who are weaker, poorer or captive slaves to go into these hell holes for us.  Gold hoarders feel glee and happiness as they contemplate their own Dragonistic piles of wealth tokens, refusing to consider the considerable human pain and suffering not to mention, environmental degradation that is a feature of all gold mining ventures.


ΩΩIt so happens that the very same week this pro-gold article appeared in the NYT, gold was discovered in the Klondike.  All great gold rushes coincide with Great Depressions.  This is no surprise.  To overcome the horrors of gold digging, gold hunting and fighting over gold discoveries, the robberies, the murder, the deprivations, the vicious conditions: this requires very desperate people willing to chance all these deadly terrors.  Gold, being the stellar restrictor of creating money, is this way precisely because it is hard, hard, evil hard, to obtain, hold and pass into any system.  This is due to it being very physical and rather rare.  Its sole claim to power is its durability, it never goes bad, forever, and its horrible and violent way of gaining gold from the bowels of the earth.  If gold were as common as iron, it would have very little value as money.


ΩΩHere is a letter to the editor as a confused reader wishes to know why Congress won’t let people in the US exchange ‘greenbacks’ for gold:  THE TREASURY GOLD RESERVE.



ΩΩGold hoarding always shoots upwards during depressions.  This is why FDR tried to short circuit this by basically outlawing the use of gold internally to settle debts or to buy and hold large gold hoards.  I have an actual gold certificate issued before FDR terminated it.  After he did this, to keep trade balanced in the teeth of global attempts at exporting one’s way out of the Depression, he kept the gold standard but to pay for running a deficit government and to fix global debts owed to the US, he did debase the gold certificates by around 50%.


ΩΩThis caused global backlashes that whipsawed nearly every nation on earth.  Almost all of Europe was plunged into credit chaos by the German refusal to pay war reparation debts or pay off US loans to pay for war reparations which, as Germany was one of the world’s biggest economic empires during WWI, meant everyone would fall into the credit default pit, even the biggest creditor power on earth, the USA.


ΩΩNearly instantly, Germany began to prepare for WWII.  This stimulated Germany’s economy and the hoarding of gold was fixed via looting various populations in Germany, specifically, the Jews who did very well (thanks to flooding into the Universities after being liberated from the medieval ghettos) previous to the collapse of the German credit system.

ΩΩBack to 1896:  GOLD COMES FROM EUROPE; $2,000,000 IN UNITED STATES COIN, AND $250,000 IN BARS. Of the Import the Sub-Treasury ..Of the Import the Sub-Treasury Receives $500,000 in Exchange for Greenbacks — Bars Taken to the Assay Office — New Engagements Reported Make the Supply in Sight $12,100,000 — Exchange Rates Still Decline.. The US is on the verge of becoming the creditor nation of the world.  After the spectacular defeat of Napoleon, England was the world’s biggest creditor power and to this day, still rides this pony despite being tremendously bad off, financially.


ΩΩTheir only slender thread to this golden past is the string of Elizabeth II’s pirate banking islands, some of which are being hammered by Hurricane Earle this week.  It is interesting to see the exchange rate falling even as gold pours in.  Here is why:  BIG INCREASE IN EXPORTS.; The Gain for the Year Eighteen Millions of Dollars. HAHAHA.  Welcome to China today!  as I keep saying, the clues are painfully obvious!  The US is a major export power back then and the cheap European labor made this quite possible.  That is, back then, we didn’t offshore jobs, we handed them over here to cheap labor.  The US was frantically exporting its way out of this depression and frankly, IT WORKED.


ΩΩLONGSHOREMEN FOR GOLD; WANT MONEY WITH A STANDARD VALUE THE WORLD OVER.: HAHAHA, again!  This is the power of NYC and its Wall Street/foreign trade matrix.  Today, the balance has shifted as the US lets in floods of imports and processing all of the climbing debts the US is accumulating has greatly enriched the bankers even as it impoverishes our entire nation and destroys our industrial base which is neigh on vanishing in this present depression.  Back then, the longshoremen as well as our now totally dead merchant marine wanted gold just as they did when pieces of eight were prized and our own pirates sculled about the Caribbean seeking Spanish doubloons. Which happens to be where the word ‘dollar’ comes from as well as the $ symbol.


ΩΩThe British were not amused.  They did the classic retaliation moves all empires make: TEXT OF A NEW CUSTOMS TARIFF.; Of Interest to Manufacturers Who Trade in British Central Africa. The puzzle today is, why isn’t the US reacting in this way?  Instead, we expand our bottomless black hole of debt by increasing ‘commerce’ which is killing our trade bottom line!  Even as American writhe in pain, the bankers continue the ‘free trade’ policies in the teeth of obvious collapse of internal industrial power as well as seeing our own shipping vanish forever.


WAR ON UNITED STATES CURRENCY; Canadian Bankers and Merchants Taking United Action.

ΩΩThis little tidbit is timely.  I remember when the loonie was pretty cheap!  But now, Canada exports so much oil, gold, diamonds, all sorts of hard core stuff, we have a trade deficit with Canada!  Here, Canada is retaliating due to the US public trying to palm off silver which has wrecked the value of non-trade dollars already thanks mostly to the Civil War costs which still wrecks the currency.


ΩΩFREE COINAGE OF WHISKY.; Silver Does Not Improve with Age, but Whisky Does.: The NYT mocks silver fanatics.  Note that unlike beer that has a very short fermentation process, whiskey takes its sweet time and thus, is more expensive as well as much more alcoholic.  FOR HONOR AND GOLD IN 1874.: Senator Sherman stood up in Congress and denounced fellow Senators from the Midwest and South who were suddenly demanding the gold currency be debased by paper silver dollars (greenbacks) which were supposed to be taken out of circulation in 1873.


ΩΩSenator John P. Jones joined him and said, ‘What other thing on earth possesses the requisite qualities (of gold)?  Gold is the ARTICULATION of commerce.  It is the most potent agent of civilization!…It is the common denominator of values.  It makes possible the classification of labor and the interchange of commodities.’  Interestingly, he also claims that ‘God Himself has made (gold) money.’  This is most amusing!  Again and again, the intersection between ‘what is money’ and religion are painfully obvious.


ΩΩThese Senators are angry about the government buying up silver and debasing the dollar coupled with clipping debts by around 50%.  This seems to be the goal this time around: our government wants to cut the debt load via the games played by the Federal Reserve and the Treasury such as buying up nearly all US housing debts and holding it within the government so the losses will accrue to the taxpayers.  A situation that will INEVITABLY devalue the dollar and create a very real inflation backlash.


PRACTICAL TALKS ABOUT SILVER.; He Must Be Kept Quiet. and PRACTICAL TALKS ABOUT SILVER; He’s “Been and Gone and Done It.” are a pair of articles going for the throat of the silver tongued orator leading the Democrats.  THE SILVER CRAZE. is funny in that the NYT, now that Wall Street is all about destroying our economy, wrecking our industry and perpetual wars meaning eternal rising debts leads all of the characters who wanted gold commerce due to being export powers, to being the exact opposite today.


ΩΩThat is, Wall Street wants to have trade deficits, a devalued dollar and easy  money and easy credit so they can continue to loot what is left of our infrastructure and run up huge, huge debts. This is why they also refuse to pay taxes!  And so far, there seems no one ready to stop them.  Instead, instinctually, the masses who are deep in debt want the same thing: fake money, and plenty of it.  And of course, no taxes.


ΩΩThe NYT also sees a conspiracy!  HAHAHA: A SECRET SILVER MOVEMENT.; The Society in Existence for Several Years and Gaining Strength. Hidden from view!  But of course, since the Federal Reserve was created, the staid old men of Wall Street switched sides and joined the ‘destroy the currency’ movement whole heartedly.  Since 1933, total surrender to the destruction of the value of money which has been debased by over 90%.


ΩΩA pro-inflation lady from Kansas ran around, giving popular speeches whereby she proposed fixing debts by debasing the currency by over 50%.  FUROR OVER MARY LEASE; THE KANSAS WOMAN ORATOR HAS A CROWD IN COOPER UNION. ” The Principles of Socialism,” …Her speeches cause riots.  HAHAHA.  Feminism was taking off back then!  Despite having few civil rights, many a brave woman forged out into the public to contest with the men.  Here is the NYT analysis of all of this:


CONCERNING A MORTGAGE. – View Article – The New York Times

ΩΩShe is classic: pay off debts with crummy money!  Far from wanting to pay debts with gold, people in debt want to do the opposite.  This is natural!  They would prefer to pay it off with sea shells or a cow.  Paying for it by first getting something that is rare and difficult is….difficult!  Who wants to do this?


ΩΩNo one who is in debt, of course.  The need for interest rates is twofold: one is to insure the lender gets at the minimum, their money back and there has to be a benefit or why bother lending in the first place?


ΩΩToday’s gold hoarders are classic in depressions: they do not desire to speculate with their loot, they want to either hoard it or use it to buy real goods being offered for sale by desperate debtors.  This is the natural and inevitable end of a credit cycle!


ΩΩIn the case of today, gold hoarders are still hoarding which is why the value of gold has soared much more than 50% over the value of paper money or CDOs which lost a lot of value.


“EUROPEAN BONDAGE.” – View Article – The New York Times

ΩΩThe fury of the Times is funny.  But also, they are correct. Back then, they knew perfectly well, whose bread was being buttered: Wall Street needed to protect US export powers as well as prevent foreigners coming in and taking over everything, buying stuff with debased US dollars!  Ahem.  As we see, once we dropped the gold standard, this is EXACTLY what happened!  Here is another anti-Bryan editorial:



Mr. BRYAN remarked some days ago in one of his brief addresses that “poor people” were not in favor of a dollar “increasing in value.” The value of a dollar is measured by its purchasing power — the quantity of food, clothing, , it will buy. Are not “poor people” in favor of a dollar which has large and possibly increasing purchasing power, rather than a dollar of low purchasing power?


ΩΩThis is all so very sad: the Times is correct here.  Poor people who owed no debts needed a strong dollar just like Wall Street bankers.  But the middle class farmers were not ‘poor’ but rather, deep in debt!  They wanted to drop the costs of their debts by making the PRICE OF FOOD SHOOT UPWARDS.  Which is what always happens when a currency is debased!  This, incidentally, often leads to food riots in great cities like say, Paris.


ΩΩWhich happens to also cause revolutions and civil wars, etc.  The dangers are great!  There is no easy magical solution that wipes out the credit messes of any debt bubbles especially war debt bubbles which seem to always be the worst of them all.  Even now!  Our housing bubble and Wall Street booms happened when the US decided to declare war on Afghanistan and Iraq and hopefully, Iran.  I heard an NPR lady babbling about war yesterday and she kept saying ‘Iran’ instead of ‘Iraq’ when talking about the war ‘ending’.  Sheesh.


ΩΩHAHAHA.  I think we have gone insane.  Time to devalue the currency to zero!

sunset borger

side picture begging boneEmail:




P.O. BOX 483

BERLIN, NY 12022

Make checks out to ‘Elaine Supkis’

Click on the Pegasus icon on the right sidebar to donate via Paypal.

sunset borger


Filed under .money matters, Free Trade, gold, Politics, religion

69 responses to “1896: The Gold Is Good and Silver Is Inflation Debate

  1. Chorddog

    Great post, Elaine.

    I sort of miss the “politeness” with which people debated 100 years ago.

    Today, attention spans are truncated, it’s a global phenomenom.

    Today, it’s all about catch phrases and insults.

    Our discourse has de-volved.

  2. Chorddog

    I said this in an earlier post:

    Protectionism is impossible, America is well past the point of no return.

    We can only compete globally in agriculture and large weapons systems.

    Repatriating a manufacturing base is not possible, with tariffs or even with a ban on imports!

    -A foreign worker’s salary is 3% to 10% of a U.S. hourly wage for the same work.

    -Trying to impose wage controls this dramatic would be political suicide.

    -It would destroy the tax base of our bloated federal government bureacracy by causing simultaneous lower wages and higher prices.

    -Price controls would strangle any manufacturing, resulting in empty store shelfs.

    -State governments would cease to function because sales tax revenues would fall dramatically.

    -There is no solution, only painful readjustment, and the pain will come.

    -But never because people decide that they want it!

    When I here people saying that “we need to impose reforms” or “we need restrictions”,

    Who is “we”???

    Our elected leadership goes to Washington, which is run by the people who put us in the situation that we are in.

    After November, the new elected leaders will do the same thing.

    Since WWI, Americans have given away so much of their collective authority to rule, given it up to new laws and new agencies and new bureaucracies.

    It is a path of relinquishing freedom that transcends generations of Americans.

    Few people today could barely comprehend the notion that there was no Federal income tax 100 years ago.

    That’s why I said that the idea of a nation-state “as a moral being distinct from its citizens”, and “as a governing personification of moral authority.”
    These are political fictions.

    A nation “should” be its citizens.

    Today, the idea of America has been firmly set as a superior entity, directing the citizens in matters of how we spend a third or more of our wages (taxes), and on the importance of “protecting” our interests by “projecting” our power with wars that suck our life’s work from us, and renew our passions with a never-ending supply of “heroes”.

    Our wars have become self-sustaining business enterprises.

    America has become the “Church”.

    Our local priests tell us very little about what the ruling “bishops” are doing.

    Demand reform? Are you serious?
    From a layperson?

    That is heresy.

  3. JT


    “Repatriating a manufacturing base is not possible, with tariffs or even with a ban on imports!”

    For a heretic you preach pretty loud.
    China just had huge strikes and wages are going up over there.
    Oil price spikes will make transporting goods more expensive.
    Taxing imports works fine too.
    You can make/do anything you want in the US.
    Never give up…

  4. emsnews

    Yes, we used to tax imports! Now, we ‘subsidize’ them via no taxes while running up huge debts on our government! Talk about insane.

    And I see no end to this due to the ease in ZIRP borrowing to reform ourselves and be realistic about how imports are cheating us out of tax revenues.

  5. JSmith

    ” It is always debtors who want debased currency versus savers who want a secure currency that is strong.”

    True but trite.

    That misses a significant part of the gold/silver debates of the 1890s: the issue of control of the economy. The articles you’ve helpfully scanned illustrate that: by and large, the people who were in favor of a gold-backed currency were the people who already had it. The debate was primarily between interests on the coasts who had capital and those in the interior who didn’t; Bryan himself came from Illinois

    In the 1890s the US economy was beginning to expand. A limited, commodity-based money supply could not provide sufficient capital for that expansion. Hence Bryan: “You shall not crucify us on a cross of gold!”

    The gold bugs who would return to a gold standard today have the same problem: there’s not enough of the stuff to finance the global economy. SOME people – the Pauls, possibly – might be OK with shrinking the economy to fit the gold supply, but those people are just strange.

    “The NYT mocks silver fanatics. Note that unlike beer that has a very short fermentation process, whiskey takes its sweet time and thus, is more expensive as well as much more alcoholic.”

    Whiskey takes time, but vodka doesn’t; since vodka is dilute grain neutral spirits, you can distill vodka on Monday and drink it on Tuesday. Someone who wants to go into the whiskey business can sell vodka for cash flow during the eight years or so the whiskey spends in the rackhouse.

    “Poor people who owed no debts needed a strong dollar just like Wall Street bankers. But the middle class farmers were not ‘poor’ but rather, deep in debt!”

    Once again: the creditor/debtor dichotomy is a shallow one that fails to capture the distinction between good debt and bad debt, and the need for capital on the part of those who would start businesses. Yes, a startup is going to run in the red for a while. But that is “good” debt, used to finance a productive enterprise. Debtors who got that way because they are merely living beyong their means aren’t using the assets productively, but that’s insufficient reason to limit economic growth by tying the money supply to a commodity.

  6. Chorddog


    “You can make/do anything you want in the US.
    Never give up…”

    Of course, JT, what other option is there?

    I wouldn’t want to live anywhere else. America is still the best place for a hard working entrepreneur.

    I’m not a heretic, I’m a realistic patriot.

    Time will tell, and hope springs eternal.

    Maybe your way is right:

    If we all stand shoulder to shoulder and scream “America” loud enough and go to mass at Hannity (or O’Reilly – we are a tolerant nation)
    and remember God Bless America and We Are At War against Islamofascism and Old Europe and Sarah Palin and the Chinese want to screw us and everyone really wants to be like us…

    Maybe then America won’t implode.

    Hope springs eternal.

  7. Chorddog

    Forty(40) percent of working Americans work for Government one way or another.

    Government employment, wages, and benefits have gone up (a lot) in the past decade at the same time as everything has gone down for “the rest of us”

    40 million Americans are now on foodstamps.
    I know what you’re thinking.
    Yes, I am certain that they want to be poor because they like getting foodstamps. Wouldn’t we all like to get foodstamps, right?
    You betcha!
    40 freaking MILLION – and I’m talking American Citizens.

    None of the Government workers are on foodstamps.

    So, when you subtract out the 40% government workers PLUS the families of 40 million on foodstamps…
    …and toss out the 25% of homeowners with mortgages under water…

    …how many privately employed, hard-working solvent Americans are there?

    Yes indeed, folks, manufacturing IS coming back to America!

    The Italians bought Chrysler from the Germans.

    Toyota is a top manufacturer of cars..in the USA!

    When I turn on my tap, here in New Jersey, the water comes from the old American Water Works Corp.- bought by a German conglomerate in 2004!

    It goes on and on.

    We are becoming a cheap labor pool for countries with higher labor costs, like Germany and Japan.

    But we are The Greatest cheap labor pool on the planet!

    But the Mexicans, an even cheaper labor pool, want to sneak in here and screw us out of our jobs.
    And Muslims, OMG!
    Aren’t they trying to take over the WORLD?

    We are at WAR!

    war, War!, WAR! Eye-Ran!!!!!


    i love you, B.B.

  8. Chorddog

    I stopped drinking coffee last week…

  9. Matheus

    Elaine, Backed Dollar or Real Bills ?

  10. DrKrbyLuv

    How can people be so damned gullible?

    There is no need for another depression, the national debt or income tax. These things are the result of our nation borrowing it’s own money from banks that have none.

    The U.S. should begin directly issuing it’s own currency instead of issuing bonds. The Federal Reserve and the international banking cartel are the problem and there will be no solution or recovery as long as we allow these parasites to rob us blind.


    ELAINE: Zimbabwe, here we come!

  11. Joseppi

    “Today’s gold hoarders are classic in depressions: they do not desire to speculate with their loot, they want to either hoard it or use it to buy real goods being offered for sale by desperate debtors.”

    One of your recurrent themes, Elaine, is a definite bias against those ‘gold hoarders’ who store their wealth, acquired through productive labor with gold and silver.
    There is a dark enviornmental shadow of gold mining that hangs over the issue as you mentioned, but so also with the injustices and fraud of the present currency system that we use everyday.
    I am sure that you have a shoe box of US currency set aside for an emergency. What is the difference with someone who stores this fund with precious metals?

  12. leavingtheoffice

    JT hit the nail right on the head with the comment: “Oil price spikes will make transporting goods more expensive.” We saw that briefly two summers ago. Globalization is like Napoleon’s armies after Borodino–mortally wounded, but still advancing without the generals realizing inevitability.

    Over the next 5-10 when years when it becomes apparent to everyone that the world is on the down slope of the Hubbert Curve, people will need to re-localize their industries regardless of cost of 3rd World labor. Kunstler may be a screwball, but he’s 100% right that there’s no time to waste in reviving commercial shipping and rail, building walkable communities and investing in public transportation.

  13. DeVaul

    Interesting comments by JSmith.

    Of course, the reality is always more complicated, despite our attempts to simplify it. Here in the law library where I work, the phrase “Debtor & Creditor” is used on countless book sets as well as a reference term for common and statutory law in all case digests regarding American Law. It is almost as if there are only two kinds of people: debtors and creditors.

    Oh, wait, I forgot “Master & Servant”, but that is becoming obsolete — for now. I am sure there are others, which just goes to show that everyone’s situation is different.

    Again, as others and Kunstler have pointed out, when oil goes above 80 dollars a barrel, the global economy comes to a halt.

    Eventually, all the old water mills and other remains from our industrial past will be rebuilt and restarted. I just hope that this time around we don’t poison every river, stream, and underground lake like we did last time.

    I am not against trade. I am just against importing things we can make ourselves. It is far less destructive of the environment.

  14. Chorddog

    “How can people be so damned gullible?”
    I’m with you, brother!
    It’s all about the banksters exploiting the sheeple.
    This isn’t about the past 10 or 20 or 30 years.
    It took 100 years for the Central Banksters to embed their system of economic slavery in the U.S.
    The War of 1812 was an overt attempt by the Rothschild British Banksters to capture our economy and nip America’s financial independence in the bud.
    Andrew Jackson crushed the first covert attempt (The First National Bank of the United States).
    Lincoln stifled the second covert attempt, and set the course for American economic independence.
    But the 3rd time is a charm, a Congress handed over America’s economic freedom to the Banksters in 1914.
    Do you know, a US dollar in 1803 had pretty much the same purchasing power in 1903.
    Since 1914, a dollar has fallen to about a nickel.

    The US should do this; we need to reform that, America has to restrict the other thing.
    Nobody is going to do any of this great stuff.
    It will change, but slowly, painfully, and soon.

  15. DrKrbyLuv

    Speaking of FDR…in 1933 the evil “gold hoarders” were scapegoats that had nothing to do with the problem. The reason why the U.S. defaulted on the domestic gold redemption window was because the U.S. treasury didn’t have near enough gold to back the currency.

    It was fraud from the start, the U.S. has never held enough PMs to fully back its currency, especially in the 1930s. If they had enough, why not make good on the promise to redeem?

    And, FDR confiscated the peoples (hoarders) gold well below market price – but why? In 1933, he stole the people’s gold below market value. Then after he stole it, in 1934, he brazenly increased the value from $20.67 – $35 oz.

    Why didn’t he raise the value first? If he had done that, then perhaps the U.S. might have enough gold to back the currency which could have stopped the bankruptcy of America. And, it would have been a fair shake for the “hoarders.”

    But here is a more important detail that needs to be remembered. The private banks were creating the money, virtually for free for profit. Why would the U.S. treasury back up a private currency? Why didn’t they have their own gold? Why did we go bankrupt instead of them? Sound familiar?

    If we were backing their money with our gold, shouldn’t we have collected a fee? Or better yet, if we were solely backing the currency, why did we need to borrow it from them?

    The answer of course is that we are stupid asses for allowing our country to be destroyed by parasites and pirates. The U.S. can stop the current depression tomorrow by issuing our own money.

  16. Chorddog

    “Over the next 5-10 when years when it becomes apparent to everyone that the world is on the down slope of the Hubbert Curve, people will need to re-localize their industries regardless of cost of 3rd World labor.”

    You are correct, but what do you think this country will be like as this unfolds?

    Americans will be working for dirt and paying through the nose for everything!

    We have become a nation of litigious entitlement seekers.

    How many time do we hear, “Get the (body, house, car, job) YOU DESERVE!”

    It will get nasty, dammit!
    Insurance fraud, robbery, Social Security fraud (a la Japan).
    Butter my shoe soles and lets go to the Mall – whoops!
    And who’s to blame, not the banksters, not us, dammit!
    It’s the Chinese, the Muslims.
    IT’s EEYE–RAAAAN!!!!!!!

  17. zip

    great post.
    so nothing has changed.

    see Peter Warburton: The debasement of world currency: It is inflation, but not as we know it

    and here
    …Central bankers offered a program to solve this dilemma, the centerpiece of which was a change in the method of financing government debt. Deficit finance bonds would be sold to private investors through existing financial markets. This would place the bonds in the hands of investment funds, rather than on the books of commercial banks as would have been the case had they returned to the old style of monetization. The subsequent explosion in the size and breadth of bond markets is illustrated by a few snapshots of gross issuances: less than $1 trillion in 1970; $23 trillion by 1997[4] and nearly $43 trillion by 2002.[5]

    imo this is where the deficits are started….


    ELAINE; correct. It has ballooned but no where near as fast and horrible as the Derivatives Beast has grown.

  18. grover clev Land

    re; purchasing power
    some prices e.g. wheat
    fell 1860-1929 as
    productivity rose…
    Still cld not but
    modern meds at any
    cost ’29 but
    accross the board
    p.metals held purchasing power
    see Weimar 4M=1US$1914,

  19. kenogami

    “our own pirates sculled about the Caribbean seeking Spanish doubloons. Which happens to be where the word ‘dollar’ comes from as well as the $ symbol.”
    The word dollar comes from the german thaler.

  20. Chorddog

    I was wondering when someone was gonna pick up on Elaine’s little error!

    The doller may also may also come from the
    Dutch “daalder”

    Remember that New York used to be “New Amsterdam”? Dutchman Henry Hudson and all that.

    Santa Claus came from the Dutch “Sinter Klaas”. Americans are the only people that say Santa Claus. It’s Father Christmas in England, and Kris Kringle in Germany.

  21. PowerToThePeople

    There is nothing magical about money, it is a universal credit for work done (goods produced or services provided), and a store of value (or credits). You take some leather and make it into a shoe, you get some money for your work, to be used to buy another good or service from someone else.

    Money should be based on something scarce or at least not easily produced or counterfeited (like gold), be divisible and easy to trade (like gold), and be indestructible / hold its value over time (like gold).

    There is nothing wrong with the government controlling the creation of money in order to generate a productive asset. In fact, it is necessary for society to function properly, and the key to prosperity for a people.

    The problem with our current money system is that private banks can create nearly as much money as they want as debt that needs to be repaid with interest (nearly free mortgages to everybody, who cares if you can repay it, yippee!).

    There is practically no incentive for the money creators to make less money, and it’s the people who earn, use, and save money through their labor that get screwed via inflation. The money creators always create credit bubbles / excess money that leads to malinvestment, asset bubbles, bad debt that can’t be repaid, and subsequent crash(es). People go bankrupt, government bails out the money creators (banks), and money creators pick up the pieces real cheap. Repeat over and over and over again, until people wake up and realize we need to change the system.


    An anti-human, anti-religion, save-the-Earth dude went crazy today:


    Reminds me a little bit of what I’ve been reading at certain unnamed web sites, blogs, and environmental documentaries.

  22. emsnews

    Ah, the wanna be Unibomber. What a lunatic.

    Yes, the sky is falling except it isn’t falling, it is ‘normal’ which means, unstable. The illusion of stability is due to our short attention span.

    I have been working very, very hard lately so have had less time to post but will post about fears about the sun, for example, and how this worry about ‘the world is going to end/blow up’ isn’t new at all.

  23. JT


    Wow. I guess this stuff really works?

    “The common enemy of humanity is man.
    In searching for a new enemy to unite us, we came up
    with the idea that pollution, the threat of global warming,
    water shortages, famine and the like would fit the bill. All these
    dangers are caused by human intervention, and it is only through
    changed attitudes and behavior that they can be overcome.
    The real enemy then, is humanity itself.”
    – Club of Rome-

    “The greatest hope for the Earth lies in religionists and
    scientists uniting to awaken the world to its near fatal predicament
    and then leading mankind out of the bewildering maze of
    international crises into the future Utopia of humanist hope.”
    – Club of Rome –


  24. JT


    “But we are The Greatest cheap labor pool on the planet!”

    Yes. France will propably have a general strike next week (even 911 operators will go on strike).
    How do you get better wages again?

    The french invented this middle class no royals system.

  25. wb


    “Yes, the sky is falling except it isn’t falling, it is ‘normal’ which means, unstable. The illusion of stability is due to our short attention span.

    I have been working very, very hard lately so have had less time to post but will post about fears about the sun, for example, and how this worry about ‘the world is going to end/blow up’ isn’t new at all.”

    I don’t agree with James Lee’s ‘suicide by cops’ tactic, and his manifesto isn’t as well stated as Ted K.’s


    However, the scientific data, the evidence, shows that his general sentiments are exactly correct.


    ELAINE: Both his and Ted’s TACTICS were bad. See? Ideology doesn’t automatically lead to sane solutions done the right way. Going nuts doesn’t fix problems.

  26. wb

    What is better, to look at the scientific evidence, of what is actually happening to this planet and everything living on it, and to make a rational, considered response ?

    Or, to deny the evidence, pretend there’s no problem, and leave it to God, as some people in the Tea Party argue ?

    “The regulation of Carbon Dioxide in our atmosphere should be left to God…”


    The problem with this latter position is, that it wasn’t God who released gigatonnes of CO2 into the atmosphere, it was people.

    God gave us a beautiful pristine planet.

    It’s people who have wrecked it. It was BP and Halliburton and Transocean and the lack of effective Gvt. regulation, that has trashed the Gulf of Mexico, not God.

    It’s people who mined the coal and burned the oil, over the last couple of centuries. It’s people who drive the cars and work in the industries which cause the pollution. Not God.

    If someone wants to argue that it is not okay to intervene to ‘save the climate’, to stop the acidification of the oceans and the melting of the Arctic ice and the glaciers worldwide, then how come it is okay to intervene by, say, building roads or ploughing fields or building cities or developing medicines or nuclear power stations ?

    It is the same science, ( as opposed to religion ) that has provided you with your computer, and your internet, and your tv, which is telling you that global warming is happening, and that it is causing climatic chaos around the world, and the results will be devastating for everybody.

    It’s science that is telling you this. You don’t want to hear it ? You want to pretend that God will fix this problem ?


    ELAINE: The ‘god’ at work here will be dear old Mother Nature. And of course, her evil sister, Random Chance, aka, Lady Luck. All we need for real annihilation is an asteroid to hit us or of course, the sun to do something nasty. The sun is the ultimate cause of Ice Ages or sudden interglacial hot spells.

  27. JT


    Well all you need now is shots to the back of the head and it is bolsevik revolution all over again.

    You are aware that all pretty much all Green politicians are ex-communists (at least here in Europe)?

  28. JT

    Khmer Vert we like to call them here.


    ELAINE: All attempts at creating a Garden of Eden leads to a god-mode similar to the one in the Bible: the angry god that kills everyone and shoves humans out of the Garden of Eden so the god can enjoy his pleasure by himself without pesky humans interfering…or kills everyone in floods, etc. Yuck.

  29. wb


    Very amusing, JT. I thought you’d be smarter than to take that bait. Just as many people call greens fascists, anarchists, nihilists, utopians, liberals, hippies, tree huggers, etc, etc. Terms of dismissal.

    Childish smears aren’t going to fix anything.

    You think the Khmer Rouge were communists ? They were supported by Margaret Thatcher, who sent the SAS to advise them. They were removed by the Vietnamese ( whom the UK and USA insisted were Communists. )

    All states, under all regimes, whatever their shade on the ideological spectrum, from left to right, ALL rely on petrochemicals, so in that sense they are all as bad as each other, and ALL will be effected by global warming and Peak Oil.

  30. wb

    “Peak oil has happened or will happen some time around this year, and its consequences could threaten the continued survival of democratic governments, says a secret Germany military report that was leaked online.”


  31. JT


    Yes I remember all this from my youth.
    Surely the world should be run by smart scientists and unelected bureaucrats.
    Ordinary people make such crappy decisions.

    You do know where scientists and bureaucrats made all the smart decisions?

  32. JT


    We have added corporations and capital to the mix in addition to scientists and bureacrats.
    So now we are more “democratic”.

    Stop feeling guilty about being alive and enjoy your life!

    This guy has the right idea:

  33. Wu Wei

    @EMS, China issues it’s own currency and does not lend it from PRIVATELY OWNED DARK FORCES WORSHIPPING BANKERS. As you may have noticed, they are doing quite well.

    USA does not have the power to coin it’s own money and has to lend from a PRIVATELY OWNED DARK FORCES WORSHIPPING BANKING CARTEL that also CHARGES INTEREST OVER IT. The money needed to pay back this interest is NEVER CREATED. This monetary system was designed to fail. And it will fail. Why are you always supporting the privately owned FED and it’s usurped right to control and issue the USA money supply?


    Thanks to DrKrbyluv, Chorddog and PowerToThePeople for pointing this out as well.

  34. wb


    “Stop feeling guilty about being alive and enjoy your life!”

    Heck, JT, what makes you think I feel guilty ?
    I’ve designed my life to minimise my eco-footprint, and I have a WONDERFUL life which I enjoy.

    I also have a couple of these…

  35. JT


    Excellent 😀 .
    I think the first step to happiness is an old motorcykle or moped.

  36. wb


    The 23 x 11-8 ATV tires inflated to only 4 psi provide a ground pressure of only 1 to 2 psi, resulting in less ground compaction from the 52 in. long vehicle than that of a person walking.

    Power comes from a 230 cc, air-cooled, single-cylinder, Hatz 1B20 industrial diesel engine rated 4.6 hp at 3600 rpm, with 8 lb.ft. of torque at 2400 rpm.

    Both the seat and the frame covers can be removed completely to allow access to the engine compartment for maintenance.

    Fuel consumption is 120 mpg..

    Engine power is transmitted to the rear wheel through an automatic clutch torque converter with high, low and reverse gears. A heavy-duty, 5/8 in. pitch chain provides the final drive.

    Machine controls are basic but common. Engine and vehicle speed is controlled by a motorcycle-style, twist-grip, throttle control. An electric starter is backed up by a manual recoil starter. Identical hydraulic caliper disc brakes fitted front and rear are operated by traditional left and right handlebar levers. Top speed is said to be approximately 35 mph, though neither a speedometer nor fuel gauge is included.

    Standard features include a 2 in. tow ball, and the Ecorider can tow up to 550 lb. depending on ground condition. It can tow any self-powered attachment for tasks such as mowing, weed cutting, spraying or spreading, the company said. Other features include a rear carrier and a 12 V power socket for charging phones or other gadgets.

  37. wb


    I think horses are even better, but unfortunately you can’t just park them in the shed and forget for a week, like these diesel bikes.


    ELAINE: I used to have a horse and carriage but Sparky died.

  38. JT


    Could you explain the time aspect of this money creation problem?

    All debts can never be paid off.
    But surely we can pay the interest?

    Money maker´s videos phhh…


    ELAINE: who ever came up with the idiot idea, debts don’t get paid back????????

    I paid up all my debts! The hard way! It is quite possible!!!!!!!

  39. wb


    “Surely the world should be run by smart scientists and unelected bureaucrats.
    Ordinary people make such crappy decisions.”

    “We have added corporations and capital to the mix in addition to scientists and bureacrats.
    So now we are more “democratic”.”

    Hmmm. Big topic, JT.

    We’re being run by the bankers, the money markets, Bilderbergers, Bohemian Grove’rs, AIPAC, Goldman Sachs, Rosthchilds, Illuminati, the Mafia, and who knows who else…. let’s call them ‘The Elite’, for short… they are now global, not tied to any particular nation or locality… aren’t we ?

    If we are not to be guided by science, then we’ll be guided by superstition and nonsense… like the African countries where the rumour spread that HIV could be cured by having sex with little children. That’s what it used to be like in Europe, pre-science. People didn’t believe that polluted drinking water caused cholera, leprosy was a punishment from God,… Etc.

    Science is by no mean perfect, plenty wrong with it to criticize, but it’s better than any other method at discovering what’s really happening.

    Trying to force culture, soceity, to follow scientific principles was tried by both USSR and USA, last century, and has been a disaster.

    Bureaucracies, likewise. They make work for themselves and need to be tightly managed.

    Corporations are dangerous, sociopathic, monstrosities, and, IMO, need to be completely re-thought, with a requirement to consider a much broader remit, than quarterly profits for shareholders and big bonuses for CEOs.

    Same goes for capitalism…

    Elaine often talks about the crazy lust to go to infinity… that’s fundamental problem of capitalism, it has to grow ever bigger or die, and you cannot have constant exponential growth, of economies or human numbers, on a finite planet…

    I think that any system which locks out the masses of ordinary people, is not only fundamentally unjust, but will result in disaster, peasants with pitchforks and flaming torches… so, even though it’s true that they make crappy decisions, like voting for lunatics, they have to be listened to.

    There were lots of interesting comments on this subject a few days ago, here :


  40. DeVaul

    Do Chinese banks charge interest on loans?

    Do they create the money to pay the interest?

    If not, their system will end up broken or insolvent just like ours. It is just a matter of time really, as the mathematics of compounding interest are not in dispute.

    For me, though, this is all kind of academic in light of what happened to the Gulf of Mexico. It is my understanding now that the Gulf loop current is blocked and now avoiding the Gulf and just going straight up the East coast. Apparently, some scientists have noticed this, but admit they have no idea what will happen since no one has ever seen anything like this in their lifetimes.

    The Gulf itself is full of suspended oil and a chemical four times as toxic as the oil itself, just so politicians and CEO’s can say “problem solved!”. Mere words are inadequate to describe the idiotic short-sightedness of such behavior.

    I will risk ridicule and make a prediction here: all or most hurricanes this season will go up the east coast because the heavy water in the Gulf will shove the Gulf current out into the Atlantic. Any hurricane that enters the Gulf will lose steam as the heavy water drains it of energy.

    Down in the Gulf, they still “pray” to Jehova to make the oil disappear. What are they thinking? Do they really believe they played no part in this disaster?


    ELAINE: I have been hideously busy building stuff so my hands and shoulders hurt which led to being unable to type for a few days. YES, this is certainly happening! Will discuss it, thanks for mentioning it.

  41. JT


    The messier the mix of leaders and interest groups the better.

    Every system has it flaws.
    But the ex-communists have a built in hatred of democracy. They are really quick at banning the opposite view.
    It was already suggested by an EU MEP that climate critisism should be outlawed.

    Power corrupts. Absolute power corrupts absolutely.

    Best not to agree on anything.
    What fun would you have without an opponent? Every conversation needs one 😉 .

  42. wb


    Yup. It’s difficult, isn’t it. Maybe break up these mega-tribes of tens of millions, into local mini tribes, where people know each other and can take care of everybody’s interests.

    I mean, in Athenian democracy, it’d work, but with huge nations, why would anybody care what happens to all those anonymous millions of people ? Social responsibility breaks down.

    Consensus is better than democracy, IMO, because democracy gives 51% happy people, and 49% very unhappy people…

    I think democracy is a nice concept, but it’s been corrupted, the real power, behind the scenes, presents voters with a choice between A and B, and they are both lying self-serving scumbags…

  43. JT


    No problem if the people seaking consensus are democratically elected.
    I come from a nation of 5,3 million so we have only small problems.
    But we have 8 different parties in the parliament at the moment not two.
    (Right, center, left, really left, social democrats, christian democrats, green party and the anti EU party)

    Elections are next april and at the moment it looks like the green party is taking a 50% haircut and the anti eu party will double their votes.
    Something might change here.

    “Follow people who seek the truth, not people who claim to have found it.”

  44. wb


    Yes, that’s what i was getting at, the problem of scale. I know a bit about Norway, similar size.

    Social cohesion and responsibility is MUCH stronger than in UK. 5 million is perhaps, possibly, the largest size that people can feel some sense of loyalty towards the common good, and that their interests are properly represented in the government.

    There is nobody in UK politics whom I feel happy to vote for.

    “Follow people who seek the truth, not people who claim to have found it.”

    I don’t know how ‘truth’ can be defined.

    If you look, the Sun goes around the Earth. Or, more accurately, it appears in the East and vanishes in the West. That’s true.

    If you are educated, you know that the Earth goes around the Sun. That’s true.

    Two ‘truths’ ? Can something like that be decided by democratic majority vote ?

    What happens when the majority are ignorant ?

    I tend to view the world with Heraclitean disdain.. 🙂


  45. wb


    The problem is, that politicians who seek power, can tell the ignorant masses that the gostak distims the doshes, and the masses will believe them, agree, and repeat the slogan, and everybody will cheer, even if it means they’ll all die a horrible death…

    Q: What is the gostak ?

    A: The gostak is that which distims the doshes.

    Q: What’s distimming ?

    A: Distimming is that which the gostak does to the doshes.

    Q: Okay, but what are doshes ?

    A: The doshes are what the gostak distims.

    Hurrah ! It must be true !

  46. JT


    For the record I am adamantly against elitist distimming.

    People at least have to have an emotinal attachment doshes or gostaks in order for it to work.
    Maybe that´s the best we can achieve in a large country.

    Scale is a problem and education.
    I agree.
    Dear leaders and father sunshines as a solution.
    I disagree.

  47. wb


    “The “iron law of oligarchy” states that all forms of organization, regardless of how democratic or autocratic they may be at the start, will eventually and inevitably develop oligarchic tendencies, thus making true democracy practically and theoretically impossible, especially in large groups and complex organizations. The relative structural fluidity in a small-scale democracy succumbs to “social viscosity” in a large-scale organization. According to the “iron law,” democracy and large-scale organization are incompatible.”

    It’s been argued that rapid rotation in office can mitigate the “iron law” in the legislatures/parliaments of large nations, however, seems to me, that means they don’t take responsibility, because they know they not there for long, so they just grab whatever they can, and leave the next folks to take the blame….


  48. JT


    “because they know they not there for long, so they just grab whatever they can, and leave the next folks to take the blame….”

    The leave part is important 😉 .
    Better than grab everything and stay for life.
    Big countries have big problems, small countries have small problems.
    More power to individual states?

  49. wb


    “The leave part is important”

    Sure. But the good ones leave, as well as the bad ones 🙂

    But this is a fascinating subject.

    As a ( very small ) land owner, I desire complete liberty, autonomy, to do as I wish on my patch, and I believe I am more responsible, have higher standards, than any of the various powers who can exert pressure on me.

    However, what if I was ( like some people I know ) very irresponsible, and didn’t care ? Say, I polluted waterways, with poisonous chemicals, which effected my neighbours.

    I’d want a higher authority than myself, to enforce good behaviour…

    And that’s where all the trouble begins… as people argue, or try to prevail by using coercion, power, violence, to force others to conform to particular ideas…

    And if there is corruption or injustice from the higher authority, then you need another, superior, authority… and another… so there’s an ( almost ) inevitable hierarchy, up to whoever is the most powerful on the planet…

    ( Which was one of the reasons that the United Nations was established. Contrary to what the NWO paranoiacs say, it wasn’t a plan for world government by sinister Illuminati, it was intended as a committee of last resort to try to resolve international disputes, to avoid the catastrophe of war.
    It’s now somewhat discredited and outdated, particularly when many transnational corporations are more powerful than nation states. )

    Nobody can agree what the ‘right’ ideas actually are, so human political affairs are very messy and imperfect…

    Which leads to the long history of political systems, and the myriad ways people have tried to solve this problem, from ancient Greece, Machiavelli, Rousseau, Tom Paine, etc, right up to today, when we turn, for example, to Elaine Meinel Supkis for wise analysis, clarification and inspiration, hahaha 🙂



    ELAINE: The UN was screwed up by the empires who were the badly misnamed ‘Security Council’. This part which is the only real part of the UN is a bunch of creeps who want to enslave each other and all of humanity and their only concern is, how to slice up the pie.

  50. JT


    The separation of powers.
    The normal division of branches is into an executive, a legislature, and a judiciary.

    It is a pretty good system IMO just horribly misused and exploited.

  51. wb

    Yes, JT.

    The fundamental problem is… people 🙂

    Anyway, re the President of the USA, Aussie was asking about ways to explain his behaviour… like I’ve said before, I really don’t like A. Jones, he weaves together truths, half-truths, and lies, to make a deceitful story promoting paranoia… but sometimes he digs out interesting info, maybe this is correct, maybe not…

    “….conclusive proof and documentation that Barack Obama Sr., Stanley Ann Dunham, Lolo Soetoro and President Barack Obama himself all hold deep ties to the CIA and larger intelligence community. ”

    “….CIA files that document the agency’s connections to institutions and individuals figuring prominently in the lives of Barack Obama and his mother, father, grandmother, and stepfather. The first part of his report highlights the connections between Barack Obama, Sr. and the CIA-sponsored operations in Kenya ”


  52. emsnews

    Bush and his family WAS the CIA.

    I grew up inside a sector of the CIA operations machine, it is quite large and VERY DIFFUSE.

  53. wb


    Bush family = CIA,
    so, if Obama was/is a CIA asset, not surprising he pursues the same policies…


  54. nah

    yo… law that is enforceable helps
    endless debates of victims and power structure leads to talk
    education and law for citizens…. all we got is entertainment and you 2 are 2 brainwashed smart people
    the truth isnt worth all that much if noone has any side that represents their worth…. muslims,jews,christians, or whatever
    Internationalists RULE!

  55. nah

    knee deep in this huckleberry vodka i want to age for a month
    strut round the mountains to get em myself
    dude i hope its SWEET! fucking wouldt that be unbelievable… huckleberry crazy hazy lady yummy

  56. nah

    Posted Sep 3, 2010 5:31 pm PT

    YES!!!! THE DUKE IS BACK BABY!!!!!!!!
    so much content available rite now man o m f g

  57. PLovering

    @Elaine, The WHO vaccine is all about killing babies by deception … A Rocky Baby and Infant Rothschild production.

    “Bangladesh: 3 babies die within hours of vaccination in WHO programme”


  58. JT


    “yo… law that is enforceable helps”

    I agree enforcing the law would be a good idea.
    Allowing bribery of politicians is a big mistake.
    I wonder how is it possible that all US politicians are super rich when they retire? And nobody finds that weird.

    Very few people understand the scale of things. They understand a politician sleeping around but they cannot understand politicians, banks, tax evaders and corporations stealing trillions.
    Or that jobs disappering is a political decision not a necessity, bought and paid for by major corporations.
    And that moving factories to China has nothing to do with being green and has everything to do with corporate profits (to WB).

    In the US it seems to me very few people understand even what is in their own best interest (union bashing nowdays).

    “We hang the petty thieves and appoint the great ones to public office.” is truer than ever.

  59. wb


    “And that moving factories to China has nothing to do with being green and has everything to do with corporate profits (to WB).”

    Is that aimed at me, JT ?
    Sorry, I don’t know what you are talking about… who said moving factories to China had anything to do with being green ?

    Can there even be such a thing as a ‘green factory’ ?

    It would have to be built from eco-friendly materials, use sustainable eco-friendly energy, from solar, wind, or water power, it would have to produce fully recyclable products, for a local area, if it needed long-distance transport, that’d need to be by sailing ships or similar, and so forth…

    Something like the old fashioned wind or water mill was pretty close.

  60. wb

    “ELAINE: The UN was screwed up by the empires who were the badly misnamed ‘Security Council’. This part which is the only real part of the UN is a bunch of creeps who want to enslave each other and all of humanity and their only concern is, how to slice up the pie.”

    Oh, I agree, Elaine. However, the original, basic idea, that there should be a meeting place, a council, for all nations, states, tribes, to meet up and argue, and attempt to resolve problems, has to be a good idea…

    I mean, it’s probably impossible to avoid wars completely, ( especially when people like Kissinger and Rothschild think they are a good way to make money, so promote them ), but when there are disputes over borders, or water rights, or fishing areas, etc, there should be a central place where nations can go and thrash out some legal framework that everyone agrees to… international law.

    Of course, if some neo-con fanatic, from the most powerful nation, comes along and ignores international laws, the whole enterprise is discredited.


  61. wb


    “..The sun is the ultimate cause of Ice Ages or sudden interglacial hot spells.”

    Yes, but that doesn’t explain anything, it’s like saying that you heat your house with electricity.

    That may be true, but it doesn’t explain the temperature of the living room, which can vary because of a host of other factors, like leaving a door open, or drafty windows.

    The heat from the Sun warms the Earth, then leaves again, radiated into Space.

    If it wasn’t for CO2, the whole planet would be an ice ball in about two months. If we add extra CO2, the planet heats up, slowly, and that changes our whole climate.

    The extra CO2 is like putting an extra blanket on your bed, it slows the loss of heat to Space.

    This isn’t inevitable. It’s human choice. It’s a choice which we are all making every day, by using oil and coal.

    People have free will, to decide to do this, or to do that. They are choosing to wreck the climate, which is not in their long term interests, to say the least…

    Of course, it’s easy for irresponsible people to refuse to face this fact, and to blame God or the Sun or anything else they can think of…

    Just like all the alcoholics I’ve known, who will never admit that it is they themselves who decide to buy booze and keep on drinking… there’s always an excuse, it’s always someone else’s fault…

  62. wb

    Re Iroquois Democracy link above, I intended to point out this bit :

    26. It shall be the duty of all of the Five Nations
    Confederate Lords, from time to time as occasion demands, to act as mentors and spiritual guides of their people and remind them of their Creator�s will and words. They shall say:
    �Hearken, that peace may continue unto future days!
    �Always listen to the words of the Great Creator, for he
    has spoken.
    �United people, let not evil find lodging in your minds.
    �For the Great Creator has spoken and the cause of Peace
    shall not become old.
    �The cause of peace shall not die if you remember the Great Creator.�
    Every Confederate Lord shall speak words such as these to promote peace.
    27. All Lords of the Five Nations Confederacy must be honest in all things. They must not idle or gossip, but be men possessing those honorable qualities that make true royaneh. It shall be a serious wrong for anyone to lead a Lord into trivial affairs, for the people must ever hold their Lords high in estimation out of respect to their honorable positions.


  63. wb

    And this, from the UN Charter.


    to save succeeding generations from the scourge of war, which twice in our lifetime has brought untold sorrow to mankind, and
    to reaffirm faith in fundamental human rights, in the dignity and worth of the human person, in the equal rights of men and women and of nations large and small, and to establish conditions under which justice and respect for the obligations arising from treaties and other sources of international law can be maintained, and
    to promote social progress and better standards of life in larger freedom,

    to practice tolerance and live together in peace with one another as good neighbours, and to unite our strength to maintain international peace and security, and
    to ensure, by the acceptance of principles and the institution of methods, that armed force shall not be used, save in the common interest, and to employ international machinery for the promotion of the economic and social advancement of all peoples..


  64. wb


    “Allowing bribery of politicians is a big mistake.
    I wonder how is it possible that all US politicians are super rich when they retire? And nobody finds that weird.”

    I think you put your finger on the exact point where things have gone wrong, JT.

    Corporations and bankers and foreign interests buy the politicians, and that creates a corrupt malign loop which needs to be broken.

    Contrast with the Iroquois :

    “Typically, tribal leaders were the poorest members of the tribe.”


  65. JT


    “Is that aimed at me, JT ?
    Sorry, I don’t know what you are talking about… who said moving factories to China had anything to do with being green ?”

    I apologize. I am bit of a generalissimo of generalization when I write.
    (I run my business at the same time so I often write hastily).
    I like reading your posts a lot.
    So sorry.

  66. wb

    No problem, JT, no offence taken, just a bit confused 🙂

    Do you have an interesting business ? I hope it’s eco-friendly 🙂

  67. JT


    It is ego-friendly.
    I´m glad you disapprove.
    My world makes more sense now and I´ll sleep better.

Leave a Reply

Fill in your details below or click an icon to log in:

WordPress.com Logo

You are commenting using your WordPress.com account. Log Out /  Change )

Google+ photo

You are commenting using your Google+ account. Log Out /  Change )

Twitter picture

You are commenting using your Twitter account. Log Out /  Change )

Facebook photo

You are commenting using your Facebook account. Log Out /  Change )


Connecting to %s