Understand The Berlin NY War Memorial

I live in the very small and shrinking town of Berlin, NY.  It grows smaller and smaller as free trade grows bigger and bigger.  As global warming heats up, my cold northern town sees population leave for much hotter places.  It is literally dying, slowly.  Today was Memorial Day and I wish to remember the people of this town and how they fought and died in many wars for two centuries.  And how things have changed and I fear, not for the better but in some ways, more like the worst of Rome in decline.  


First, Kunstler recently wrote a blog entry about my town.  This wasn’t accidental, he knows I live here and has read my elegies and complaints about this place which has many beautiful facets but is being ground down by global changes we seem unable to either stop nor comprehend.  Instead, there is a great deal of confusion and wishful thinking going on here and as I see everywhere in the US today, there is hope that there is some easy, magical solution that will cure what ails our empire.


The Song of Spring – Clusterfuck Nation


I had a strange experience, driving north about fifty miles along Route 22 in eastern upstate New York, from Canaan to Cambridge, a very rural stretch that roughly parallels the Massachusetts and Vermont lines. Aside from a few convenience stores serving up gasoline, slim-jims, and pepsi, there was no visible economic activity in any of the towns along the way. The little town of Berlin, NY, was especially striking. A “for sale” sign stood  forlornly in the parking lot of the lumber yard, the inventory sheds plainly empty of stock. The Seagroatt wholesale flower company – where, years ago, I picked up roses as the delivery guy for a Saratoga retailer – was shut down, with rows of empty greenhouses standing vacantly in the late day spring sunshine. The little downtown on a street one hundred feet off the highway was not only empty of  businesses, but the old wooden buildings themselves had gone lopsided from a lack of regular caretaking, while the paint was all but gone. A number of old houses were still occupied – cars in the driveways – but they looked battered and worn, one bad winter from roof failure, and often with front yards strewn with plastic detritus…. One thing you didn’t see a lot of along Route 22 was farming.



The present depression has hammered our town.  Since housing values are falling, no one is going to invest in taking care of their houses.  For sale signs sit in front of houses collecting weeds and fall leaves.  There are a number of quite fine houses here (mine being just one of these) but as things drag on, people are now beginning to seriously give up.  That is, drinking and drug abuse in school is a serious problem here, yet children still work hard to gain scholarships and educate themselves but the state has slashed school funding and taxes can’t rise with more and more properties going into receivership, etc.


A harsh landscape indeed.  The picture at the top of my story is a statue erected in 1906 to commemorate the Civil War dead.  Look carefully at it: a noble looking young man with a serious face contemplates the horizon, looking back on his own death, arms resting on his rifle.  The pain in his face is sorrow, not fury. He has suffered greatly and now is at rest.  Many a widow and mother wore black for so long, this became the #1 color of women and men’s dress during the interval between the Civil War and WWI.


Now, it is brutal, childish, and above all, vicious icons we worship and use when thinking about our empire:  Movie Star Stuff: Sylvester Stallone as John Rambo

The US just went through an ugly spasm of rejoicing that our SEAL team illegally invaded an ally nation and then rush into the home of bin Laden to gun him down and then take his body out and supposedly dumping it in the deep blue sea.  This stupid and arrogant gesture single handedly destroyed the last remains of our international diplomatic position with Pakistan and Afghanistan and exposed our soldiers to attacks which have killed a number of them since the raid.


This Rambo-style of fighting has led us into literal hell.  We were shoved unceremoniously out of Vietnam and Southeast Asia so we licked our wounds by turning into vicious thugs who use lots of weapons to kill ‘gooks’ yet one more time.  The storyline is particularly troubling: Rambo was supposed to rescue these legendary and utterly unreal ‘prisoners’ who the Vietnamese, for some odd and inexplicable reason, wanted to keep.


Like the missing WMD in Iraq, these prisoners didn’t ever exist.  Many a US soldier was unaccounted for in the vicious jungle warfare of the Vietnam years.  But the idea that they were held prisoner was stupid since Nixon and Kissinger worked everything out well before our pull out so that the prisoners came home.  Pretending this wasn’t so was churlish as well as insane.


Right now, our media is tagging after a woman of endless contradictions in the GOP as she traipses about in high heels, lecturing us about sex while her teens pop out babies out of wedlock, or lecturing us about working hard while quitting work, herself and of course, lecturing us about wars when she couldn’t fight her way out of a paper bag, herself:  In Gettysburg, post-jog Palin greets supporters.


She is part of the great cultural split whereby the Union has been turned in to the bad guys and the slave states in the Confederate were good, brave guys fighting for Christianity, etc.  We are at the 150th anniversary of the beginning of the Civil War and Palin and her pals love to talk about how say, nearly all white yahoo bikers are ‘real Americans’ and of course, Obama isn’t and wasn’t even born here.


Here is another photo of the Berlin memorial in the center of our small town.  On one side of this memorial is a proper American flag.  But on the other side  is the black, insane, bizarre flag about prisoners of war.  Hard as I can look, the only people that fit the description of this flag are imprisoned in Gitmo, not Vietnam.  Vietnam is invading US markets just like Japan and Germany via trade.  No American, not even Palin, will go there and find our mythical missing warriors supposedly trapped there.  Not even McCain has claimed there are or were prisoners trapped there after Kissinger and Nixon withdrew.  So why fly this insane flag?

When the Civil War ended, people just wanted to go back to normal again.  The severe wounds the country took were so hard to heal, they aren’t healed at all today even though finally a ‘black’ man could overcome most people’s racism to win the Presidency.  The economic distresses continue to flux and grow as our economic base vanishes.  The memorial here in Berlin has a lot of interesting information since this memorial has been added to over and over again over the years.  Let’s look at these various additions and figure out who built this memorial and why:

The list of wars after 1900 are on this slab.  WWI, WWII, Korea, Vietnam, Grenada, Lebanon, Panama, Persian Gulf are all here.  Not the latest few.  I suppose a huge pillar should be erected for the many anti-Muslim wars we must fight until we go under.  Just as fighting commies nearly bankrupted the nation, the present wars and we can see how they evolved from fighting Europeans, then Asians and Spanish colonies to Muslim wars, more and more.

Here is the original list of wars: the Revolutionary war, Napoleonic wars, Civil war, and finally, fighting the Spanish (which we did off and on since day one, it seems).  No names for these wars, just the stark dates.  I assume this is because of two things: the many painful losses during the Civil war was too horrible to document closely so instead, the people who built this shrine simply put in the year knowing everyone would have the same terrible thoughts of losses.


In front of this is a later plaque put up in the 1960s, unlike the harsh 1900 plaque, it lists names of all who fought.  Our town is very small!  But look at the long list of names for these two wars.  Back then, the town had many more young people, many, many more children.  These were the farm and factory kids who knew many survival skills, they led hard lives here and could endure terrible storms, blizzards, flying projectiles, they could face death unflinching.

Today, we have lost Berlin youth to the present Middle East wars.  Some have come home terribly disfigured.  Brain damage is the worst, burns over much of the body, the suffering is very intense and heart breaking.  Especially since it is just as futile as the Vietnam war.  We can conquer but not hold!  We can’t salve our wounded souls with fabulous stories of super-muscular, super-mean heroes rushing into Muslim lands to free prisoners since they hold virtually none and are tribal groups, not nations.


Instead, we ape the villains in the Rambo movies by torturing prisoners and then never releasing them.  It is about the saddest collapse of American honor I can imagine.  We can’t see this!  It is nearly blinded from our eyes by desperate attempts to make us feel heroic as we go about, blasting away Muslims.  NATO Strikes Kill 32 Afghan Civilians, 20 Police  As Karzai Issues ‘Last Warning,’ but NATO Strikes Continue as the US Is Taking Afghan Concerns ‘Very Seriously’ claims the White House.  We are winning no hearts and no minds due to being heartless and mindlessly violent.  The ethos of Rambo has seeped deep into our souls and renders us unable to win any more wars.

The backside of the Berlin Memorial lists the names of the organizations that erected this.  The Women’s Christian Temperance Union and the Berlin Grange!  These are two activist organizations both of which sprang up right after the Civil War.  Both were born due to economic collapse when the gold/silver/paper money debate roared onwards for two decades.


Both fought hard political battles and the WCTU succeeded in outlawing briefly the drinking of liquor.   But the Grange collapsed and now there is, as Kunstler noted, virtually no farms left here at all today.  Here is the webpage for the anti-drinking ladies:  Welcome to the WCTU



In the summer of 1874 at Chautauqua, organizational discussions were held by the women determined to act against the ravages of alcohol. They decided to hold a national convention that fall in Cleveland and the WCTU was formed. Mrs. Annie Wittenmyer was elected president; Miss Frances E. Willard, corresponding  secretrary; Mrs. Mary Johnson, recording secretary; and Mrs. Mary Ingham,  treasurer.


Among the WCTU’s primary objectives in temperance reform was “protection of the home.” The slogan “For God and Home and Native Land” (later changed to “Every Land”) expressed the WCTU’s priorities. Through education and example the WCTU obtained pledges of total abstinence from alcohol, and later also tobacco and other drugs. The white ribbon bow was selected to symbolize purity, and the WCTU’s watchwords were, as they are today:


“Agitate – Educate – Legislate.”



Palin is the exact opposite.  She wants us to get drunk.  This is why the bikers like her.  She is OK with teen sex and we know her daughter was drinking heavy liquor when fooling around while very much under age and to this day, unmarried.  Palin is the sort of woman these ladies would have run out of town in no time flat.  Wrapping herself in the flag would have been quite insulting to these Victorian matrons.  Rambo would have been hit with umbrellas and ordered out, too.


The bikers who celebrate Palin would have been considered thugs and footpads by these fierce Victorian women.  They most emphatically would not associate with or admire these people.  Americans like to think we are outlaws, by the way.  We celebrate pirates which I don’t mind all that much since some of my ancestors were pirates as well as other unpleasant things.  But Victorian ladies didn’t admire any of that, no way.


Then there was the Grange:  The Grange Movement: Patrons of Husbandry



Grange influence was particularly strong in Iowa, Minnesota, Wisconsin and Illinois, where political pressure yielded a series of “Granger laws” designed to give legislative assistance to the farmers. Those laws received an initial blessing from the Supreme Court in Munn v. Illinois (1876), but a later counteroffensive by the railroads brought the Wabash case (1886), which wiped out those gains.

During the 1870s, the Grangers advocated programs such as the following:

  • Cooperative purchasing ventures as a means to obtain lower prices on farm equipment and supplies
  • Pooling of savings as an alternative to dependence on corrupt banks, an early form of credit union
  • Cooperative grain elevators to hold non-perishable crops until the optimal times to sell…A major shortcoming of the movement was the failure to address what was probably the root cause of many farm ills—overproduction.



Nothing really has changed, has it?   The courts continue to make the rich richer and redistribute power from below to above during the last 40 year cycle just like back then.  The old battles of yore must be refought.  Only we are rather weaker now since we are so enamored with the idea of Rambo and us being victims when we are not victims, we are the victors.  That is, we win our wars by hook or crook (picking on the weak, for example, or disarming someone via the UN and then attacking!) but we lost the real war within, the hearts and minds of Americans.


How can we win this in the future?  Some people pin hopes on ZIRP finances where we don’t have gold or silver but unlimited paper money thrown over everything.  Other people want a strict metal money system.  Others want to ‘buy American’ but that has been a vast failure, hugely.  Others hope to skip out on our obligations and go bankrupt and then use our military to attack anyone who complains about this.  None of these things will work.


As we contemplate the stern yet sorrowful face of the Civil War monument, we should think harder about how important it is to sorrow over losses and then to go to work reforming America.  Our ancestors did this.  We can do this too.

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Filed under Free Trade, Politics, war and peace

45 responses to “Understand The Berlin NY War Memorial

  1. Dupree

    The State of Mississippi suffered over 50,000 casualities in that War of Secession. And you pay tribute and “honor” these war criminals. NYC even has a park dedicated to “Total War” William Tecumseh Sherman! Within a two hour drive from my my home I can visit the battlefields where the bodies of Lincoln’s Generals victims lie buried en masse. Most of whom never “owned” a slave.

    General Robert E. Lee’s prophetic words–written to Lord Acton in response to why he chose the Confederacy– on what a Union victory would mean and why he chose to defend his State of Virginia

    I yet believe that the maintenance of the rights and authority reserved to the states and to the people, not only essential to the adjustment and balance of the general system, but the safeguard to the continuance of a free government. I consider it as the chief source of stability to our political system, whereas the consolidation of the states into one vast republic, sure to be aggressive abroad and despotic at home, will be the certain precursor of that ruin which has overwhelmed all those that have preceded it.

    And from Henry L. Mecken, who btw, railed against the war with Germany which I assume you applaud fom your snarky comments on David Irving:”Irving is an idiot.”

    The Gettysburg speech was at once the shortest and the most famous oration in American
    history… the highest emotion reduced to a few poetical phrases. Lincoln himself never even
    remotely approached it. It is genuinely stupendous. But let us not forget that it is poetry,
    not logic; beauty, not sense. Think of the argument in it. Put it into the cold words of
    everyday. The doctrine is simply this: that the Union soldiers who died at Gettysburg
    sacrificed their lives to the cause of self-determination – that government of the people, by
    the people, for the people, should not perish from the earth. It is difficult to imagine anything more untrue. The Union soldiers in the battle actually fought against self-determination; it was the Confederates who fought for the right of their people to govern themselves.~H. L. Mencken

    You got your “Union victory” over the Southland and the Plains Indians of the West. Live with it!


    ELAINE: Defending his state from rights for slaves. Yes, that was noble indeed. Why did so many Southerners fight so hard? Partly was from fear of slaves not staying slaves. No one attacked the south when Lincoln became President. But there was a promise to do something about slavery. Not even end it, just stop it from spreading (yes, there were huge fights over new states whether they would be slave or not).

    One of the worst things being done to history is how people who support the concept of slavery have papered over the fact that the North did NOT attack the South at all what so ever. It was a one way street and it wasn’t due to the North wrecking the South’s economy, it was due to the fact the South expected the North to stop creating MORE slave states! This is what the Battle of Kansas, fought so hard by slave owners, was all about. They wanted Kansas to be a slave state.

  2. Dupree

    What others say of David Irving’s scholarly works on the Third Reich:



    ELAINE: Oh, that he was totally dishonest?

  3. Dupree

    But there is always KARMA for Custer’s physical torture(documented) of Colonel Mosby’s Ranger soldiers in the Shennandoah Valley.


    ELAINE: I wonder if you ever heard of Anderson Prison? Where the Union soldiers were starved to death? Then there is slavery itself: the host of tortured, raped, abused and killed from overworked, died while being transported from Africa is huge. Just terrible. And totally, utterly overlooked by pro-Confederation lovers.

  4. CK

    For every Andersonville, there was a Camp Douglas that did the same and worse. The water cure ( like waterboarding only fatal ) was used there, and again during the American “pacification” of the Philippines.
    The American hero is no different today than it was in the French and Indian war or any other war.
    Actually there is a difference, American heros are no longer conscripted ( enslaved if you will ) to go and kill folks they don’t know and don’t give a flying frig about. Now they are all volunteer killers.
    You can thank Hollywood for glamourizing the American Hero and his wars. And then you can look at who writes, who directs and who green lights these movies.
    It used to be that young men went off to war so that old men could enjoy the young women that stayed home, that was operative up to and including WWII.
    Lincoln did not fight the War to free the slaves, if he could have he would have shipped them all back to Africa or sent them to Central America to set up colonies. The war was fought over money, as all wars are. The North wanted tariffs ( much as you do now ) the South wanted trade. If the South were allowed to leave, trade would have flowed to the southern ports and escaped northern tariffs. English iron and steel would have come into the south and found its way north. Slavery was already becoming a drain on the southern economy, it is cheaper to use the cotton gin and the mechanical harvester than to keep slaves. The uneconomical aspect of slavery was so apparent that most of the rest of the world had given it up by the late 1840’s.
    Sherman and Sheridan and Custer were war criminals, but they were on the winning side so they are heros.

  5. Dupree



    And the saddest commentary on that War is that our State Militias have been converted into pawns of of the King’s Armies in DC to fight “aggressive wars abroad” with the willing compliance of the scalawag US senators and governors like Mississippi’s Governor “Boss Hogg Barbour” as we refer to him these days.

    Now our “Mississippi Rifles” of 1861 parade and swagger around in the Union “Blues,” bragging of their conquests in Iraq and Afghanistan. And when Hurricane Katrina hit our Gulf Coast, they were nowhere to be seen;instead they were carrying out the promiscuous slaughter of civilians in Fallujah–the City of Mosques.


    ELAINE: I complained about that after 9/11 when the government hijacked the National Guard. I said back then, ‘Now, more than ever, we need them guarding our NATION not foreigners!’ Well, no one listens to me.

  6. CK

    When you accept the demo’s shilling, you eventually have to kill the hoi polloi.
    I will point out that for at least the next couple of months the citizens still have amendment three of the Bill of Rights remaining operative. The other nine, not so much.
    The Anti-Federalists were right.

  7. bamaearl

    Hello pretty lady. I hope summer brings warmth to you and yours.
    I never built a fire this winter so I would be prepared for this Summer.
    I wonder if the magical solution could be as easy as going barefoot more often? Riding a bicycle on an errand?? Forgiving you Yankees???

  8. tono

    too many open wounds still ….
    I see , maybe the time is coming to payback ,
    it will be accelerated by U.S. economy decline.
    Only if you guys are real representatives of the feeling from North and South.
    We ‘ll see the U.S.A version of Balcans.


  9. DeVaul

    Dupree, you are insane.

    My ancestors from northeast Mississippi did not fight for the slave owners. They refused to join up until the Union made plans to attack Corinth. Within in a month, all my ancestors and their relatives had enlisted “for the duration of the war” (there was no other option given to them).

    They refused to fight until their own lands and homes were threatened. They hated slavery because it made their lives miserable. They could not compete against free labor, so they had to put their own children to work in the fields to make up for the loss of income and competitiveness.

    None of them owned slaves, and the Confederacy stationed troops there at the start of the war to keep my ancestors in line. They actually preferred the Union until the war became very ugly.

    Many died at Shiloh, and my own ancestor fell at Falls Church in a small field while scouting for Union troops. No one knew what happened to him until I found where he died ten years ago. His wife wore black all her life and only said: “He went to war and never did come back.”

  10. N00b

    So. The descendants of the Southerners who fought against these United States in the War of Southern Rebellion are up in arms.
    You sound like the
    Germans who are pissed about losing WWII.
    Oh yes, the War of Southern Rebellion was most certainly about the Right of Southern “Cavaliers” to own other human beings, although all of you want to cry foul at that.
    The first bullets of that war to come were fought between Kansas and Missouri–and those were some bloody battles that we never learn about in school. I’m sure the Western-most state of the Confederacy–Texas–makes sure about that, since they order the school books and the rest of the Southern Baptist herd in every other State of the Union follows suit.
    And the Kansas-Missouri wars were exactly about slavery–the Southerners wanted to make sure that any new states added to the Union were allowed to hold slaves. And the people who had gone to the frontier and sacrified to build something knew exactly what would happen–they would be impoverished by the “Cavaliers” immediately.
    As we know, a person who works for a certain standard of living (non-Cavalier standard, incidentally) cannot compete against free i.e. slave labor. Impossible.
    As it is, I don’t know what you Southerners are complaining about. You always crowed: “The South will rise again! The South will rise again!” And by God, you did. The Destroyers of the Union in operation these last 15 years or so all came from Texas–the Western-most state of the Confederacy–and other Southern States. The Bushes, DeLay, Armey. Clinton. Frist came from the South, too. They found their white-boy compadres in the North and boy, they destroyed. And behold–you have what you wanted: A return to fights we thought were done. Evolution. Overt Racism. We have become an extractive economy that exports grain, ores, anything from the ground–to OTHER countries to process and sell back to us. No manufacturing. And Education is reserved for “those who deserve it”–wasn’t it that jackass from Kentucky, Rand, who said that we should educate people like we did back in the 1700’s. (Right. Rich white males “deserve” an education—for some reason–and screw everybody else.) And now our public education system is a joke, with–Southern Baptists again–trying to teach “Intelligent Design” and wanting to dumb down the importance of Science and even writing Thomas Jefferson out of the history books.
    Still not happy? Why? What’s wrong–not in the planter class? Plenty of leftwingers have tried to explain that you’re not going to BE in the planter class, but you fight education every chance you get.
    Let me tell you a sin and a shame: In the “AP Report to the Nation 2009”, not even 5% of the students who took an AP test in Louisiana or Mississippi scored a 3 or higher! NOT EVEN 5%!!! New Mexico did better than that! Hell, every other state did better than that! You people are a laughing stock, a joke! When Northerners talk about stupid southerners, they aren’t kidding. What a joke. What a national disgrace. How contemptible you people are.
    We’re still fighting over state’s rights–yeah, when it’s convenient to be a “State’s Right” like flying your Nazi-Confederate flag over the State Capitol. And when it’s inconvenient to be a State’s Right–like when Florida said Terry Schiavo can have her feeding tube pulled–then all of a sudden it’s NOT a State Right, and that Bush-cutter can cut one of his vacations short to try to pass a Bill of Attainder.
    Sherman did his damn job: He made sure that he broke the will of the people to fight back AND to prevent the enemy from sustaining itself and harming the troops. That is EXACTLY why the US constantly bombs civilian populations. YOU got the first taste of it. Don’t like it, huh?
    You know, going along with the Southern Baptist meme of “God is punishing you because…” Did it ever occur to you that God is punishing the South with floods and devastation and tornadoes BECAUSE YOUR BIGGEST INDUSTRY IS SENDING YOUR YOUNG MEN TO KILL INNOCENT PEOPLE IN IRAQ, AFGHANISTAN, PAKISTAN, AND NOW LIBYA??? Because the South DOES ABSOLUTELY NOTHING for its people–only for its planter class. The rest of your citizens count for exactly SQUAT—which is EXACTLY how the government treats the entire country today. You got EXACTLY what you wanted: The South rose again.
    And if there is an opportunity to go to war, the South will support it every damn time. Even though Sherman gave you a taste of war so damn hard, you still bring it up today–yet you go and give it to others.

  11. ooh@ch.ie

    War, sectarian strife, terrorism or whatever is devastating for ordinary citizens of any country. Everyone is aware of this but not so many understand the economic conditions that bring war about.

    A sudden adverse change in general economic conditions is a precursor.

    Q: if you have a contented prosperous nation will anyone give up their good life to be horribly maimed or die in the heat and dust of Afghanistan?

    A clear explanation of the conditions of poverty-making is always a good start and since its difficult to observe ones own faults it might be helpful to lood at a good ally.


    Not the easiest read but the conclusion is clear.

    “There has never been an example of an economy that collapsed in an orderly manner. The end is always sudden and very unpleasant and accompanied by a dramatic drop in the standard of living for the whole population.”

    Next comes a ‘Leader’ with the solution, usually to go over the hill and bash the neighbours.

  12. floridasandy


    you sure are worked up there.

    i see the northern “elite” left wing in charge and they aren’t doing such a “smart” job managing things.

    they have devalued our currency, started taking away our rights,(read the patriot act?) put us deeper in debt with bigger interest payments, ignored the consitution, pushed illegal immigration on us, tried to implement cap and trade under the radar, and engaged on wars on more fronts than bush even dreamed of. (oh yeah, and they talked about impeachment but never did squat when they were in charge of congress)

    the liberals can’t even come up with a budget, and they flee the state when they are asked to stand up for something.

    they are cowards, pretending to be the “intelligentsia”.

    you might not be in a position to throw stones at us.

  13. ooh@ch.ie

    Curious but not well understood. Change the group and its not so unfamiliar. initially it was indentured servitude.


    “White servants” were probably Irish slaves captured and sold during the heyday of the Irish slave trade (1649-1657).


    “In the period over the famine decade 1841-1850, 1.3 million people emigrated overseas [1]. Of these, 70% went to the USA”. Migration gave these people something that never was otherwise possible but they brought their prejudices with them.

    Leading to a easily agitated fear.


    “The Irish antagonism towards abolitionism stemmed from the group’s fragile economic position. Common Irish laborers found themselves in competition with free blacks in the North (and in New Orleans). The abolitionist demand for the end of slavery provoked almost hysterical fear of a flood of liberated slaves marching north and ousting the Irish from their jobs by accepting lower wages.


    A major attraction for Irish volunteers was the guarantee of a Catholic chaplain. The second was a sense of Irish nationalism, whose analog was seldom if ever found among the other immigrant communities.

    Hard to say, why do people kill each other?

    I’m curious does anyone know why other immigrant groups fought in the Civil War?

  14. Dupree

    You sound like the
    Germans who are pissed about losing WWII.

    Any German citizen that dares to question the “court historian’s” narrative of the events that led up to WW2 can be charged with a “crime” and ordered to appear before a tribunal at Mannstein. Tens of thousands of German citizens have met this fate, including Ernst Zundel who was kidnapped from Pidegeon Ford, Tennessee, flown to Canada and then deported to Mannstein. After his conviction and five-year sentence, the judge sent Zundel’s lawyer to prison, too.

    Don’t you think that the German people have a right to question the past? The German people thank David Irving–author of Appocalypse 1945:The Destruction of Dresden— because” he told the world about Dresden”… the true story the German people by law were never allowed to tell.

    Sherman did his damn job: He made sure that he broke the will of the people to fight back AND to prevent the enemy from sustaining itself and harming the troops. That is EXACTLY why the US constantly bombs civilian populations.~N00b

    Is this an endorsement of your people’s atrocious actions at Deir Yassin and Gaza?

  15. ooh@ch.ie

    My favourite is a german I worked for.

    His attitude is that the WWII events ended before he was born. His father died in the Wehrmacht. He can’t change the past, he lives with the consequences and hopes perhaps to improve the future.

    I once met an english woman and she told me this story. One summer morning when she was five and her sister was seven, she woke up and left Borough High Street tube station in London with her sister, she said they always climbed out ot the tunnel asap before everyone because it was great to be out. There was a ball on the street outside and, soccer mad londoner, she kicked it to her sister who caught it, it was someone’s head.

    German people do question the past and so do all europeans.

    Irving claims to write history but like, Cheney in Iraq, ignores people.

  16. Dupree


    Much of what you say about the New South thirst for Muslim blood, and it being linked to the evangelicals “abolitions fervor” for a Crusade, are true. Just last week, Governor Barbour, speaking at a luncheon for the 1960s Freedom Riders, compared the KKK to “Islamic Fundamentalists.”

    You are newbie here and obviously have not read my postings on Libya, in particular. Being a guest of that country’s people and Ethiopia’s people some forty years ago, I am saddened by the actions of the post-1964 generation of Southerners who are now taking part in the promiscuous slaughter of these people. And, yes, the peoples of Central Africa are next…doing the bidding of Mississippi’s own CEO Richard Adkerson, the billionaire mining mogul who now heads Freeport MacMoRan. He is a graduate of that cow college in Starkvegas, Mississippi– Mississippi State University. Freeport MacMoRan has purchased the Phelphs-Dodge miming interests in Congo and will do to the Congolese and their land what they have done to Indonesia and West Papua for the last thirty years.

    CEO Adkerson was able to get MSU’s aeronautical enginnering department to work with CEO Yaari Shamir–one of your countrymen, N00b?–and his IAI to produce killer drones.

    BTW, Yarii Shamir is the son of Yitzah Shamir, the murderer of Count Folk Bernadotte who had been sent by the UN to get an “on the ground” consensus on how the indigenuous Palestinians felt about hte “partition.” Obviously, the report did not meet with Stern Gang’s approval.

    I donate twice annualy to LinkTV and tune into Democracy Now and Mosaic. Do you, N00b?

  17. ooh@ch.ie

    Also everyone in Europe knows about Dresden, and Coventry and Guernica and every other war crime up to and past Fallujah. Its forbidden to raise these publicly not to hide what happened but because it might start the fighting again.

  18. Dupree

    “I’m curious does anyone know why other immigrant groups fought in the Civil War“?

    Hardly immigrants, the Choctaw and Cherroke brigades fought for the Confederacy.

    I cannot imagine where the Choctaws fall into place in N00b’s “Southern social class structure”.

    Since they were agrarians and did employ slave African slave labor, I guess they would be of the “cavalier Planter” class.

    Flags of the Choctaw and Cherokee Brigades


    ELAINE: Some of these people were slave owners.

  19. ooh@ch.ie


    One in eight persons owned by another.

    Main question is why US congress applauded The Israeli president last week!

    Did you really elect these persons?

  20. Dupree

    And if there is an opportunity to go to war, the South will support it every damn time. Even though Sherman gave you a taste of war so damn hard, you still bring it up today–yet you go and give it to others.~N00b

    Those who forget their history are doomed to repeat it. And with the post-1964 text books cleansed of our written histor –part of a pact with the Federales to get all that government money– the New South knows little of their heritage. I doubt one in one-hundred New South Southerner can tell you the location of Shilo Hill or Chickamauga.

    When the Feds brought in the new “court historian-approved” textbooks back in the early 1960s, the state education board offerred the local Mennonite community the old textbooks for their school. The jewish ACLU intervened and forced the State to destroy the old books. One can still find the old books at estate sales and antique stores where they bring big prices at auction.

  21. ooh@ch.ie

    Thanks Dupree,

    I’m suprised the Choctaw and Cherroke brigades fought for the Confederacy.

    Are there any more links or way of learning more.


    ELAINE: just google the history of Indian tribes owning slaves in the South before the Civil War.

  22. Dupree

    Also everyone in Europe knows about Dresden, and Coventry and Guernica…
    But do the know the “unadulterated” truth?

    Irving Claims that Picasso’s war art–Guernica– appears in Picasso sketches before the actual Guernica event occurred. “Guernica” appears to be a surrealist portrayal of a Spanish bullfight.


  23. Dupree

    Who started the Blitz:Irving and others claim that Churchill was responsible for the German reprisal raids on Coventry.

    Irving documents this fact in Hitler’s War.


  24. Dupree

    “Sherman did his damn job: He made sure that he broke the will of the people to fight back AND to prevent the enemy from sustaining itself and harming the troops.[Support the Troops, huh] That is EXACTLY why the US constantly bombs civilian populations. YOU got the first taste of it. Don’t like it, huh?“~N00b

    Why the hatred of the German people, N00b? So what’s your defense of the Morgenthau Plan?
    Don’t go away, please.

  25. ooh@ch.ie

    All artists use sketches to develop, like a musician learns chords. The image painted is representative not a photograph.


    There are, well now not so many, eye witnesses.

    I agree there are many ‘narratives’ but if you are not so sure visit the area, and the murder was not confined, you will find evidence everywhere and if you are patient people will talk about what happened.

    The Spanish Civil war was a brutal neighbour against neighbour murderous event and there are many Spaniards still alive who tell the truth and will share it with you.

  26. Dupree


    I’m about to fall asleep at the wheel. I’ll try to tackle the Choctaw question tomorrow. I live only a short distance from where the Treaty of Dancing Rabbit Creek was signed with the Choctaws Nation back in 1820.

    I just wish that if people want to judge the people and actions of the past, judge them by the standards and actions of their times.

  27. Dupree

    All artists use sketches to develop, like a musician learns chords. The image painted is representative not a photograph.~

    The point that Irving was making is that the sketches of Picasso’s Guernica were done before the bombing of the village of Guernica and thus could not be a surrealist painting of the bombing.

  28. ooh@ch.ie

    Churchill was a colonialist, war mongering, imperialist.
    Coventry is now and was then a war crime.
    Sabra and Shatila is now and was then a war crime.
    Fallujah is now and was then a war crime.
    Dresden is now and was then a war crime.
    Gaza is now and was then a war crime.

    The responsibility lies with the actor.

    Its no defense to say HE MADE ME DO IT.

    Its no defense to say they hid amongst civilians. Its no defence to say these children will grow up to be terrorists.

  29. Dupree

    ELAINE: I wonder if you ever heard of Anderson Prison? Where the Union soldiers were starved to death?~Elaine

    A sidenote to the Anderonville Prison story.

    It was Lincoln who terminated the prisoner exchange system, resulting in unnecessary deaths at camps on both sides.

    McPherson blames the Confederacy for the prolonged failure to resume prisoner exchanges, which in turn led to the unintended deaths of thousands of Union prisoners of war (p. 792). Many Northern soldiers and civilians placed the majority of the blame on Lincoln and General Grant because they refused the Confederacy’s repeated offers to exchange nearly all prisoners and instead insisted on an all-or-nothing arrangement. McPherson accepts the official explanation for the delay in the resumption of prisoner exchanges, i.e., that Lincoln and Grant refused to resume exchanges because the Confederacy refused to release black Union prisoners as part of those exchanges. There are arguments that can be made for and against the Confederacy’s policy on black prisoners. Confederate authorities argued that former slaves who had taken up arms against the South were guilty of federally sanctioned slave insurrection. They also argued that slaves did not have the right to be soldiers since slavery was still legal, even under the U.S. Constitution, and since those slaves had either run away and/or had been forced to fight for the Union. In any case, I have my doubts that the Confederate policy on black prisoners was the real reason for Lincoln and Grant’s opposition to a resumption of exchanges. I suspect their real reason was that they didn’t want to replenish the Confederate army’s manpower. They knew the Union could replace captured soldiers much more easily than could the Confederacy.

    In fact, in August 1864 Grant said it was better not to exchange prisoners and that “if we release or exchange prisoners captured it simply becomes a war of extermination.” McPherson denies this was the real reason behind the suspension of exchanges, and he notes that Grant made these comments “more than a year after the exchange cartel had broken down over the Negro prisoner question” (p. 800). However, one could certainly make the argument that Grant was expressing his real reason for opposing the resumption of exchanges, regardless of when he made the statement. Some find this the more plausible view, given the rather uncaring attitude that Grant had already shown and expressed toward blacks, and given Lincoln’s own well-known views on blacks….”



    ELAINE: Sorry, but the abuse began from the day the very first prisoner came there. And was inhuman from the first hour of that ‘prison’.

  30. Dupree


    I suspect that the alliances that the “civilized Indian tribes” forged with either the Confederacy or Union was based upon protecting their own sovereignty within the Nation or territory under occupation. For most of the members of the Confederate army, Secession and taking up arms against the Union had more to do with State sovereignty and home rule and virtually nothing to do with maintaining the institution of slavery.

    The Choctaw’s dilemma would be akin to the Niesi taking up arms to fight in Europe with the “Go for Broke” 442nd Regiment during WW2 or go to an “alien relocation camp in California and have their property and possessions auctioned-off by California Attorney General Earl Warren–later Chief Justice of the US Supreme Court. No Niesi was ever sent to the Southern Pacific to engage his kith and kin–the honorable sons of Nippon.


  31. Dupree


    The collective punishment of reprisals against “innocent” civilians, who engaged in a “combatant” role against the occupying powers, was legal under the operating Geneva Conventions of that period. The occupying authorities were also obliged to provide provisions and protection to the non-combatants.

    Collective punishment was outlawed under the post-war 1947 Geneva Conventions, although Israel and the Coalition forces employ it daily.
    The slaughter in Fallujah happened under Secretary General Kofi Annan’s watch and he went on to receive the Nobel Peace Prize.

    I suspect that Ban Ki Moon will get his Norwegian “prize” too, after the “endgame and liquidation of Gaddafi” is “mission accomplished.”

  32. Dupree

    I cannot respond to N00b’s rightful claim that the New Southerners are all for the fight.

    It wasn’t always that way. How can any Southerner walk through the mass gravesites of Vicksburg, Shilo, Chickamauga, Lauderdale,Champion Hill and see that Commander-in-Chief Obama’s imperial armies are now inflicting the same upon the hapless peoples of Libya, Iraq, Afghanistan, Egypt,Yemen, Congo,Uganda, Somalia, Tanzania, and who knows what battlefield scenarios the Neo-Con Pentagon war planners have in store.

    A disgusting even occurred this past Sunday. The local church hierarchy in Mississippi encouraged the local congregations to wear their stowed away army uniforms to church, along with their medals and awards in honor of the veterans of the GWOT.

    Imagine the sight of old men in “tight-fitting” uniforms with canes and walkers sitting in the pews as an “honor guard” marches down the aisle and sits behind the pulpit. Then the preacher praises the vets for their war service in foreign lands.

    Mississipians love to say that they are “the most religious State.” But stastically, it also ranks tops in everything “bad” and at the bottom on everyting that is “good.”

    However, it has much to do with the post-1964 situation. That’s another matter for discussion.

  33. RobG

    Another explosion at Fukushima – spent fuel pool 4?: Rense.com

    What DID happen? We’ll have to wait for the picture to come back on but the most likely scenario is that the R4 fuel pool collapsed and the near-term clean-up effort has been set back to the year 2525.

  34. RobG

    (and just to get out of italics) ,(end of italics)

  35. floridasandy

    kofi annan -one of the biggest war criminals ever

    serbs killed by nato bombs
    mass graves of srebrenica
    killing fields of rwanda
    genocide of darfur

    the UN hard at work.

  36. Dupree

    And, I might add, Annan was complicit in enforcing the UN 12-year Starvation Blockade of Iraq which resulted in the deaths of 1.5 million Iraq civilians, 600,000 of whom were infants and toddlers(defined by the UN as being under the age of 5-years)

    Ratko Mladic has been kidnapped and sent off to the ICT-Y kangaroo courts at the Hague where Milosevic was allegedly poisoned some yeras ago as he was being tried for war crimes, too. The US refused the Russian demand that an autopsy be performed on Milosevic. An interesting sidebar to that trial is that General Wesley “Bomber” Clark–yes, he’s one of the Tribe, too-testified against Milosevic only on the guarantee of immunity from prosecution.

    The US is not a member of the ICC, but acts as pro bono bounty hunter and provides funds for its operation, including fabricating evidence and bribing witnesses to testify against its defendants. Remember Liberia’s Charles Taylor?

    {SNIP} from John Pilger’s piece from the Scotsman

    …Readers will recall that the justification for the NATO bombing was that the Serbs were committing “genocide” in the secessionist province of Kosovo against ethnic Albanians. David Scheffer, U.S. ambassador-at-large for war crimes, announced that as many as “225,000 ethnic Albanian men aged between 14 and 59” may have been murdered. Tony Blair invoked the Holocaust and “the spirit of the Second World War.” The West’s heroic allies were the Kosovo Liberation Army (KLA), whose murderous record was set aside. The British foreign secretary, Robin Cook, told them to call him anytime on his mobile phone.

    With the NATO bombing over, international teams descended upon Kosovo to exhume the “holocaust.” The FBI failed to find a single mass grave and went home. The Spanish forensic team did the same, its leader angrily denouncing “a semantic pirouette by the war propaganda machines.” A year later, Del Ponte’s tribunal announced the final count of the dead in Kosovo: 2,788. This included combatants on both sides and Serbs and Roma murdered by the KLA. There was no genocide in Kosovo. The “holocaust” was a lie. The NATO attack had been fraudulent.


  37. emsnews

    I tried fixing the italics and failed. Sorry about that.

  38. Dupree

    For those that cannot remember or are too young to remember, here is just another reminder of the war crimes committed against civilians by US airmen. These war crimes are being conducted in Libya and the NATO bombing campaign has now been extended 90 more days.

    This video is of the second air strike(coup de gras) on the civilian passenger train crossing the Gderica Bridge in Serbia.

    Bomber Clark claimed that it was a “troop train.”

  39. Dupree

    More photos of the terror bombing of Serbia by Clinton and his Jewish cabal:Wesley Clark;Bill Cohen;Madeleine Albright;Robert Rubin;James Rubin;Christiane Amanpour-Rubin;Lawrence Summers…


  40. Type open acute bracket slash i close acute bracket to end italics. Or type open acute bracket slash i close acute bracket to end italics.

    Okay here goes.

    Italics Regular

  41. The first didn’t work I’ll try the second.

    Italics Regular

  42. Dupree

    How could I have ever forgotten to add Clinton’s National Security advisor for Yugoslovia, Sandy Burger— also known for the theft and destruction of classified documents from the National Archives–to that list?

    While Lawrence Eagleburger was not part of Clinton’s jewish cabal, he was a key player in Yugoslovakia’s dismantling and a close associate of Kissinger and Holbrooke, while claiming he was Milosevic’s “friend.”

    Response to the NYT obit on Lawrence Eagleburger


  43. Dupree

    A revised lookback at the dismantling of Yugoslovaia by the US cabals explains the events now taking place in Libya. Who’s next, Belarus?


  44. Pingback: world war 3 predictions

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