US Encourages Killing Of Russian Ukrainians, Puts US Student In Prison Up To 5 Years For Hitting Cop With Elbow

Dozens injured, fatalities on both sides in ongoing military op in Slavyansk (VIDEO) — RT News

Ukraine: many feared dead in fresh Slavyansk clashes  after Brennan of CIA ‘Warmongers R US Agents’ fame visited secretly and gave permission to the coup to kill.  No Russians among Slavyansk self-defense forces – NYT reporters as yet again, the NYT had to admit they made up propaganda stuff.  This war is a classic.  The US lies about the genesis and then proceeds to imitate Nazis.

 

Pro-Russia prisoners freed from Odessa police HQ as the EU and US media giants continue to ape the Bilderberg gang rulers in calling these citizens ‘rebels’ while just one month ago, the violent pro-Nazi demonstrators in Kiev that were burning down government buildings and killing cops were called ‘peaceful demonstrators.’  And when the elected President of Ukraine made nice after negotiations with NATO, he was chased violently out of Kiev.

 

Which then caused the NATO nations to impose an IMF banker as ruler with zero elections.  When the right wingers chased everyone else out of the Parliament, the rump Parliament then voted in anti-Russian, anti-Orthodox laws.  This is what launched the revolt.  And this revolt is totally legitimate because they are revolting against a non-representative dictatorship imposed by foreign powers!

 

‘They need only blood’: Slavyansk woman killed by sniper fire on her balcony (GRAPHIC) as Dozens of FBI, CIA agents in Kiev ‘assisting Ukraine security’ murder, oppress and intimidate anyone who is against the paramilitary coup in Kiev.

The NATO double standard such as ‘anyone we defeat is a war criminal and any war crimes we commit is OK’  continues as NATO nations pour in military equipment, money, goon squads, assassins and alien agents to support this blatant coup, while even the corrupt and evil US Envoy Admits: No Evidence of Russian Involvement in Odessa — News from Antiwar.com

 

So while Ambassador to Ukraine Geoffrey Pyatt centered his CNN comments on insinuations that “someone” has a vested interest in seeing the situation grow more chaotic nationwide, he eventually conceded that there was no evidence of any Russian involvement in Odessa.

 

Pyatt went on to urge investigation into who was responsible for the incident, suggesting local police may have been complicit in the fire which killed at least 38 protesters in the city.

 

The double standard of our fascists continues on all fronts.  Here is something barely in the news in the US unlike say, the Pussy Riot chicks, that is deeply troubling:  Occupy activist guilty in assault trial

 

An Occupy Wall Street activist is facing up to seven years in prison after being convicted by a jury in Manhattan of assaulting a New York police officer as he led her out of a protest.

 

Cecily McMillan was on Monday afternoon found guilty of deliberately elbowing Officer Grantley Bovell in the face in March 2012. After a trial lasting more than four weeks, the jury of eight women and four men reached their verdict in about three hours.

 

Judge Ronald Zweibel ordered that McMillan, 25, a graduate student at the New School, be detained. He rejected a request from her lawyers for bail.

 

Oh, the terror!  The fascists in Kiev threw molotov cocktails, shot guns, beat up cops, set buildings on fire, etc.  And the US media owners and our entire AIPAC controlled government loves this.  Anyone protesting the rich 1% who rules us is severely punished.

 

Right wing private property and ‘the US government has no rights to stop us’ people are allowed to parade around with guns and talk about killing Federal agents and nothing at all happens to them:  I-Team: Police say Bundy ranch protesters not off the hook – 8 News NOW

 

In exclusive interviews with the 8 News NOW I-Team, officers who were on the scene shared their thoughts and fears, and they say it is not over.

 

“These guys with rifles, keep them calm,” was Clark County Assistant Sheriff Joe Lombardo’s request to one of Bundy’s sons the day of the confrontation.

 

Lombardo’s top priority was to prevent a spark that might set off a bloody firefight.

 

“There was a possibility of somebody just having an accidental discharge causing a blood bath, because the individuals that were showing up, the militia quote unquote, were armed to the teeth,” Lombardo said.

 

So, unarmed anti-banker protestors are not allowed to even muscle a cop but anti-Federalists can openly carry arms and make threats but to ‘prevent a bloodbath’ the Feds retreated???  Meanwhile, the Feds are orchestrating a blood bath in Ukraine to back an illegal coup??? Not to mention Egypt.  The far right has this bizarre belief system that Obama backed the anti-military demonstrators in Egypt.

 

This is patently false and the minute an election happened and the wrong people won as far as our rulers were concerned, off came the gloves and the Egyptian economy was collapsed deliberately by the bankers which caused rather minor demonstrations and then this led to an IDENTICAL coup as we saw in Ukraine.  This is an old, old US blueprint which has been used frequently in the past.  It is a favorite CIA ploy.

 

The US double standard is stark: the Pussy Riot chicks can run around wearing masks and invading churches and doing obnoxious, disruptive and aggressive things and when put in prison, Putin PARDONED them all only to have these obvious CIA sponsored agents go to the Olympics and harass cops there to scream ‘police brutality’ when the police brutally suppress anyone who dares disrupt ANYTHING here in the US except if they are fascists carrying guns.

Screen shot 2014-05-06 at 6.49.25 AM

​New subs, warships, SAMs, troops to be deployed in Crimea  as Putin builds up his power base in response to NATO’s record 6,000-strong drills kick off in Estonia amid Ukraine tensions.  And China continues to be outraged by US aggression:  This is just a test: Philippines, US kick off major war games in Pacific.  EU, Japan to start cyber-security dialogue as the ruling elites work tirelessly to cement power and oppress people. Municipalities cut back support for citizen gatherings on constitutional issues – 毎日新聞 as the fascist takeover in Japan tightens its grip on power.

 

Seeing less and less reason to court the US, China to Take Part in Crimea Transport Corridor because both Russia and China can clearly see the US, Japan, Germany and UK all want WWIII and best to start preparing for this now.

 

Australians protest social services cuts as the grip of the bankers who were not punished for the various bubbles they created and the crash they caused, fix the economy via crushing workers and helpless people even more.  And the bankers are even richer today the speculators are very rich thanks to ZIRP lending by central banks.  And no one dares protest this for unlike Pussy Riot, you will end up either dead, beaten badly or in prison for touching a cop.

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87 Comments

Filed under .diplomacy

87 responses to “US Encourages Killing Of Russian Ukrainians, Puts US Student In Prison Up To 5 Years For Hitting Cop With Elbow

  1. Jim R

    oops that was meant for the previous thread

  2. JimmyJ

    Lots of continuing (but possibly sketchy) evidence of movement of military hardware across the EU and in Ukraine.

    Here’s one video showing a train with a Ukraine flag moving dozens of artillery, APCs and Katyusha BM-21 dated today.

    http://goo.gl/E0UoRR

    This next video shows Austrian EU MP Ewald Stadler accusing the west of a covert buildup of 100s of tanks and missiles under the cover of games and drills including unmarked tanks and military hardware going east through Austria. The video has Russian soundtrack and CCs, so I’m relying on a translation by a commenter at “The Saker” blog (daisy2, 06 May, 2014 15:07). Stadler’s own website is blank on this so I can’t confirm it. It’s worth reading the whole “daisy2” translation if you can find it. Stadler is quite alarmed.

    http://goo.gl/e5uF9h

    Well it’s not much of a gamble to presume that there has been a ‘covert’ buildup of conventional forces all under the games and drills excuses. Covert in the sense it is hidden from the general public for political reasons. This is completely opposite to the very public buildups prior to the two Iraq wars. so the pretense of moral persuasion is gone entirely now.

  3. emsnews

    War games=war. Indeed in the past, has been the casus bellus itself.

  4. JT

    War between what ideologies?

    There are three capitalist camps.

    It is all the same whether an individual is at the heart of the theoretical (United States), the community (China), or a group of intelligence officer ogers (Russia).

    Ideology is a consumer society, the objectives are that the citizens flat-screen televisions increase in size, start-ups thrive and making sure conditions for the growth of income inequality are secure.

    Relationship between freedom of expression, ballot priming and the oppression of minorities varies, but the goals are pretty much the same.

    So these three camps will start WWIII?
    I doubt it.

    You need an ideologue to get people going.

  5. melponeme_k

    The legacy of CIA fascists…thanks to their illegal activities, Polio is now again a danger to innocent children.

    http://www.inquisitr.com/1239210/polio-outbreak-called-internationl-emergency-by-who/

  6. JT

    They are best buddies and best pals.
    Why would they start WWIII?

    Putin and Schröder a couple of days ago.

    Best buddies forever…

  7. JT

    Putin doesn’t seem to get a long with the western liberal left wing leaders elected after the meltdown of western banks.
    His party is a russian version of the republicans after all, very right wing.
    He seemed to get a long with Berlusconi, Bush, Srchöder and Sarkozy fine.
    Bush really liked him 😀 .

    He likes to get business deals done for his oligarghs, talking about human rights etc propably bores him.
    After all half of the agendas of western left and green parties were propably invented in the chambers of by stasi and kgb anyway.
    Talking about those issues seems to bore him to death.

    Maybe the best way to avoid WWIII would be to elect more right wing leaders to the west?
    😀

  8. DeVaul

    @JT

    Wow. What a strange comment.

    Umm… the people who set fire to the building killing 40 people and the people inside who died were not fighting over capitalism or how it should be defined or practiced.

    They have been whipped into a frenzy over ethnicity, culture, language, nationality, and who will be in control. None of this has to do with capitalism, which is a dead ideology at this point in time.

    Putin said it best:

    “The west is upset that they can no longer control everything.”

    For obsenely rich people, power and control are all that is left to fight for, and they will start wars over it by using “the little people”, whom they regard as pawns to move around as they please.

    Smart people see this coming and try to get out of the way. If they cannot get out of the way, then they pick a side and fight for it rather than allow themselves to just be killed.

  9. emsnews

    It is all about ethnic religious warfare. Dangerous stuff.

    WWI was fought by three emperors who were so closely related they could have been the Corsican twins.

  10. Christian W

    Some of the people trapped in the Trade Union building that were arrested and then released have been caught again and “disappeared” by the Kiev regime.

    JT, you’ve lost the plot buddy. This time the US is supporting outright Nazis. I was watching what happened on live stream. This is very simply Nazi Storm troopers in action. Sturm Abtailung brown shirts. The SA is back in Ukrainian form. What is really creepy is that the US has supported these people with money and training for years. They formed the core of Maidan together with Ukrainian

    There is enough evidence to show what these people are truly about. They strangled a pregnant woman in the Trade Union building with a piece of wire (many people were trying to take refuge from the Nazi attack dogs there).

    Imagine what the western media would do with that image if they were supporting the other side. That they are mum about these obvious crime is a clear sign that the US/West is now no longer a democracy in any shape or form but an outright fascist operation that have taken their operations to the European main land.

    NATO is about to become the Waffen SS in modern form.

  11. Christian W

    My post above should read: “They formed the core of the Maidan together with Ukrainian ultranationalist/nazi inclined special forces”

  12. emsnews

    Yes, they are Nazis but then, so are the Israeli Jews in the IDF. And the ruler of Japan is a Nazi Japanese like his DADDY who was a war criminal during WWII.

    And so on. The US supported Franco who was a close buddy of the real Hitler himself! And the US coddled him after WWII. Imagine that.

    I have a long, long memory especially for Nazis since I knew quite a few real, honest to goodness Nazis from Germany.

  13. Christian W

    Per the Guardian: “Fearing unrest, Odessa has cancelled all large public events scheduled to mark the upcoming 9 May holidays that commemorate victory over Nazi Germany in 1945.”

    I would think so!

    The Kiev regime has bussed in more nazi thugs (trained on the US tax dollar) as reinforcement to the police force… (you can’t make it up). Odessa is mostly a Jewish/Greek city from my understanding.

    Celebrating the victory over the Nazis under these circumstance is out of the question unless you want to see a repeat perfomance of the TU atrocity.

    The US has now admitted they have sent CIA and FBI specialists to Kiev to help coordinate operations there.

  14. Christian W

    @Elaine

    “Nazism” and “fascism” is a mindset more than a set ideology. Someone wrote about a leading Hungarian Nazi that discovered that he was in fact a Jew. Whambam he simply transformed himself into a Zionist without too much, if any, mental agony.

  15. Christian W

    “WWI was fought by three emperors who were so closely related they could have been the Corsican twins.”

    Old habits die hard. The German intelligence services were supporting Ukrainian ultranationalists already back in the Kaiser’s days. The aim of course was to have an enemy aimed at Russia. Parts of what is Ukraine today were also part of the Austro-Hungarian empire back then.

  16. Christian W

    Btw, I got censored the other day on the Guardian’s Comment is Free page because I pointed out that Zionism is another form of Fascism/Nazism.

  17. e sutton

    @Christian W

    Take it as a point of pride for being censored. It just means you speak the truth. I’ve been censored by Michael Snyder, whom I regard as the worst kind of alarmist. I don’t mind bloggers pointing out that we are in dire straits, but when you try to point out the real reasons why, such as Zionism, the “Afro American” Problem(s), the fraud that is “global warming” he doesn’t like it. Screaming that we all positively f_cked is one thing, but proposing no real solutions (as Elaine does) the whole thing seems pretty pointless. Just my two cents……

  18. JT

    Well now they did a deal.
    Cease fire in Homs and no elections for separatists in Ukraine.

    Ukraine is a mess for a decade at least.

    No world Wars, non linear conflicts instead.

    WWV according to FSB.
    http://www.lrb.co.uk/blog/2014/03/28/peter-pomerantsev/non-linear-war/

  19. Christian W

    Let’s hope Ukraine avoided the fate of Syria, Libya and Iraq. But it looks like they got caught like the Egyptians.

    If there is one thing the US elites hates it’s democracy. More on that later.

  20. emsnews

    Never, ever has the US supported democracy when fascists take over.

    Remember, the US never declared war on Germany’s fascists. Hitler declared war on the US. And Japan did a sneak attack (they did this to Russia in 1900, too).

  21. JT

    @devaul

    “They have been whipped into a frenzy over ethnicity, culture, language, nationality, and who will be in control. ”

    The opposite IMO.
    Security services can get a few hundred people to die and fight over the great spagettimonster in a week no problem.
    Ukrainians however have showed remarkable restraint and have been very reluctant to kill eachother.

  22. JT

    @christian w

    “Let’s hope Ukraine avoided the fate of Syria, Libya and Iraq.”

    They got the faith of Georgia.

    Ukraine was attacked by Russia and they got Crimea.
    Russians saw the opporturnity and took it.

    Now Ukraine is stuck for a decade at least and they will not be allowed to decide one way or the other. The bots from both sides can stir up violence quickly enough.
    So mission accomplished.

    Russia is doing exactly the same thing as the US is doing in Syria.
    That paradox is a bit too obvious so US wants this to go away.

    Everybody who is against Russian interests is a fascist or a nazi, so those terms are meaningless. Very useful of course since they spur up so much emotions.

    A smart person would think that both US and Russia should stop and start following international treaties again.
    But I guess all those were flushed down the toilet during Bush years.

    But I guess chasing ghost nazis from RT “live” broadcasts is as good a solution as any?

  23. Christian W

    Ukrainians however have showed remarkable restraint and have been very reluctant to kill eachother.

    Most Ukrainians, like people everywhere, are sane, normal, empathethic people that understand what it means to hurt other people. Not so the psyhoc/sociopaths in charge and the nazi storm troopers who get a kick from murder.

    What is going on is very much what Göring described when he said:

    “Göring: Why, of course, the people don’t want war. Why would some poor slob on a farm want to risk his life in a war when the best that he can get out of it is to come back to his farm in one piece? Naturally, the common people don’t want war; neither in Russia nor in England nor in America, nor for that matter in Germany. That is understood. But, after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy or a fascist dictatorship or a Parliament or a Communist dictatorship.
    Gilbert: There is one difference. In a democracy, the people have some say in the matter through their elected representatives, and in the United States only Congress can declare wars.
    Göring: Oh, that is all well and good, but, voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same way in any country.”

    I’d like to highlight Gilbert’s comment here:

    Gilbert: There is one difference. In a democracy, the people have some say in the matter through their elected representatives, and in the United States only Congress can declare wars.

    In that light it is obvious the US is no democracy. Elected representatives no longer represent the people (if they ever did) and Congress doesn’t bother to ‘declare wars’ anymore.

  24. JT

    @elaine

    “Never, ever has the US supported democracy when fascists take over.”

    Never ever has Russia or China supported democracy anywhere.
    So at least US supports demcracy sometimes.
    😀

    ΩΩΩ

    ELAINE: We get to ‘vote’ here for whoever gets to collect bribes from lobbyists like AIPAC.

    Great.

    Then they do nothing for us. Some ‘democracy’.

    This is an OLIGARCHY and the elites always support that everywhere.

  25. Christian W

    The fate of Georgia. Georgia was an idiotic operation. How insane was it to attack Russia? Basically it was just a rehearsal for Ukraine.

    The nazis in Ukraine are very real. Svoboda (“freedom”), Privya Sector (Right Sector) and other groups in Kiev are outright self confessed Nazis. That is not RT propaganda that is simply a fact. There are people from Svoboda in the new Kiev coup government. For these people WWII never ended. Many of them are descendants/related to SS soldiers in the Waffen SS division “Galicia”

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/14th_Waffen_Grenadier_Division_of_the_SS_(1st_Ukrainian)

    Nazis in Lvov hold a commemorative parade for these “heroes” every year, they in fact just held one.

    In Odessa they had to cancel this year’s Victory Day celebrations over the Nazis on the 9th of May because the Nazi gangs bussed in to “reinforce” the police would use it as an excuse to kill more people again.

  26. emsnews

    just wait for the German fascists to act. Ja, sie sind wirklich schrecklich.

  27. JT

    @elaine

    Well you do have freedom of the press/speech, not the best in the world but a pretty good one.
    You do have a pretty balanced legal system.
    You do still have 2 parties to choose from.

    Not perferct but pretty good. Nowhere else is that possible except in the west.

    Roman law, Greek democracy and christian humanism.
    These are fragile things, our western ways and took a long time to evolve.
    And very valuable even though we nowdays like bash them so much.
    Those are things to die for.

    Western style democracy is not the best system the human race can come up with I’m sure and might not work for all countries.
    But it is the best one we’ve had so far.

    ΩΩ

    ELAINE: Ah yes, our ‘free’ oligarch press. Lets all the news in…NOT.

  28. Christian W

    JT, if you haven’t noticed the Law, Democracy and Humanism are all being subverted now in the US and through the US the rot is spreading into the EU. This rot is NOT coming from Russia, it is coming from the US – the Shadow government, Intelligence apparatus, Wall Street (and the big European banks that are part of Wall Street) and the Bilderbergers (who are essentially the European equivalent – or arm – of the US shadow government). These are the people starting wars globally, pushing militarism and destroying international law on purpose and bending democracy to suit their selfish interests.

    We are increasingly left with a facade democracy where people can vote but the vote is unable to change anything because the Shadow Government have their paws on all the crucial power switches. All laws that are in the slightest awkward for the elites are changed either outright or bit by bit over time. Frankly in the US democracy is dead as the dodo. There simply is NO chance for a genuine, indpendent politician to make his mark in a system where 95%+, heck 99.98% (maybe Bernie Sanders is somewhat independent) or more of the members of Congress are not owned lock, stock and barrel by the insiders to the system. More, there is no chance for such a candidate even to enter the political system on a national scale in the US.

    How is that democracy? It is nothing but fasicm pure and simple. The UK is near as bad or as bad at this point. Germany who knows but it is not looking good. Us lilliput Scandinavian countries are too small to matter much, but Sweden is already pretty hopeless and Norway and Denmark have their carefully groomed sell outs too. Finland have freedom still domestically, I think, but they are not exactly making waves internationally.

    Putin and Russia may be self serving bastards, but they are on the defensive against the US Shadow Government. They always were from the very start. That is the very reason they grabbed power in Russia in the first place. Russia was rapidly being destroyed and eaten alive by the US. Khodorkovsky was planning to sell Russian oil to Texan oil men just as an example. Putin put a stop to that crap and that is why he is so hated and described as the new Hitler by the Hitlers in the West.

    Putin is desperately defending the borders of Russia. Russia is not yet strong enough for any kind of offensive unless it’s a suicidal all out nuclear attack. Moreover Putin has never showed any interest in building an old Red Army style attack force to occupy his neighbouring nations. He saw first hand how stupid that kind of system is, he lived through it.

    Last. If Russia tried to have a democratic system the US would again subvert it, bend it, buy the candidates, grab Russian companies either directly or most likely inderectly through bribes and simply control all sales of Russian commodities. What reasonable alternative does Russia have to Putin?

    The current Russian system is simply the US system without the smooth Wall Street snake oil salesmen, the magic money printing press and the enormous propaganda media apparatus. Oligarchs rule both West and East.

    What the US crushed with the attack on Russia through Ukraine was simply the hope that the EU would manage to wriggle out of the US Shadow Governments grasp. If the EU could have formed a block with Russia it would have benefitted all of Eurasia. EU business would have had the energy it needed for it’s industries and economic growth, Russia would have had a reliable partner and through it’s own economic growh might have grown strong enough to gradually become a new, less paranoid and less militaristic and brutal Russia and integrate towards Europe.

    Now what we will get is Black US Fascism covering all of US and Europe and later Latin America and Canada. The rich will keep stealing more and more and austerity will turn into outright bloodsucking over time as their greed intensifies and the economic system stagnates. The US will keep pushing and pushing and pushing against Russia, Iran and China increasingly desperate for final control and the resources to avert the inevitable implosion of the system.

  29. JT

    @christian_w

    “JT, if you haven’t noticed the Law, Democracy and Humanism are all being subverted now in the US and through the US the rot is spreading into the EU.”

    Of course I’ve noticed.
    That is what EU is for, dismantling the nation states and nowdays promoting the rights of multinational corporations.
    It is quite sad but let’s hope divided europe has to be a bit more democratic.
    Out of necessity since we are quite the diverse bunch.

    What is your alternative?

    I just watched on finnish YLE (local BBC) a political debate between four people; a left wing anarchist protester, left wing policitican (ex-communist), right wing parliament member (ex-police officer, local republicans) and a right wing populist and nationalist (anti-eu party).

    Now where else can you see that kind of a debate on society and paid for by the taxpayers.
    😉

    It was a mess but quite interesting.
    The anarchist seemed most clear headed.
    That this is the stuff we need, freedom of speech, free press and a chance for all nutjobs to have their say.
    It is a superb system compared to anything else.

    ΩΩΩ

    ELAINE: Once upon a time I used to be in debates on TV. But starting in 1989, I was increasingly censored. When Phil Donahue, for example, wanted me to debate on his then-popular TV show, he suddenly ran into the dressing room in Manhattan waving his arms and yelling, ‘Get out of here! Now! I can’t have you on TV’ after President Bush Sr. called his boss and made threats!

    As I left, I took him aside and did my ‘predict the future’ stuff: ‘Phil, one day they will kick you out, too and you will never be on TV again.’

    And…he came out against Bush Jr. and the Iraq war and his show was immediately cancelled. And he has never been on TV since.

    I used to be on CNN! Ted Turner and I were quite friendly. Then Ted sold his business to the sharks who promised to keep him as president and back then, I told him, ‘They will kick you and your son out, you’ll regret this.’

    They did exactly that and CNN sucks today.

    And he fled the country and you never hear of Ted Turner unless something bad happens to him! I could go on and on and on about this because I knew EVERYONE in the media in NYC once upon a time as well as out of state. I was connected.

  30. Christian W

    We need more than that, we need proper representation and equality before the law. If the elites take all representation for themselves, stiffle the debate and manage what we are supposed to think, were is our precious democracy?

    The way forward as I see it is simply to wrestle back the control of the law, restrict lobbying, regulate the tax codes, throw the criminal fat cats in jail, break up the trusts and so on. Simply roll back the robber barons and their lackeys. For that to happen we need a functional opposition.

    It is amazing that the modern elites have managed to shift the entire political spectrum to the far and the ‘hairs width difference’ right, but still a long, long way from the middle of the spectrum.

  31. emsnews

    The oligarchs took over via inflation.

    Let me explain: during the Vietnam war inflation years after Nixon and Burns cut the gold standard, unions had many strikes to get pay raises. This pushed them into higher and higher tax brackets.

    Instead of doing what I demanded: index tax brackets to inflation, the rich backed the ‘cut all taxes’ regime which led to the rich paying nearly no taxes!

    Which is why our government now runs perpetually in the red.

    Then the rich rigged the inflation index to exclude food and fuel! And now are piling taxes on BOTH.

  32. DeVaul

    “The opposite IMO.”

    Burning people alive in a building and then strangling the survivors is the “opposite” of what I said?

    Ok, JT, I’ll be blunt. You remind me now of the Ostdeutchen, who used to have meetings and gatherings back in the 1980’s about how to regain their lost territories in Prussia and the Baltics. I’m sure a lot of Finns are still angry about the loss of Karelia to Russia, and you sound like one of them.

    Putin is not an angel, but he is also not insane. He is smart, yes — SMART — to use the botched coup in Kiev to expand the buffer zone between the Russian heartland and NATO, which has gone to war nearly everywhere you care to mention in the last 15 years. I would not even be as patient as he is. All of eastern Ukraine would be under Russian control if I was him.

    The leader of Finland is not smart, and that will be to your disadvantage someday, JT. In an era of feudal warlords, all that matters is who is sane and who is not, who is smart, and who is dumb.

  33. JT

    @devaul

    I meant that despite of all the provocation there is still no civil war and quite few casualties.

    Turchynovs friend was tortured and killed and there is a lot of effort to provoke more violence on all sides.
    That was a FSB job 100%.
    The other killings who knows. Nobody here does that is sure.

  34. JT

    @devaul

    “The leader of Finland is not smart”

    Quite the opposite IMO.
    Compared to all other neighbours of Sovjet Union/Russia finnish leaders have been quite the miracle workers.
    I have 0 complaints.

    No nato for us but we are still here.
    Free for almost 100 years.

  35. Christian W

    I’m not so sure anymore, JT. A previous Finnish Prime Minister was part of a Bilderberger meeting a couple of years ago. Fortunately he got fired, but there is talk now about Finland joining NATO which would be an insane move.

    If you recall we discussed how Mannerheim set the tone for Finnish foreign policy by remaining as independent as possible with iron integrity. He didn’t sell Finland out to special interests of any political flavour.

    Russia, like the Sun :p, fluctuates in power. Russia will always be a neighbour to Finland and it is vital for Finland to have good relations with this enormous nation.

    We have been free for 100 years but Russia withdrew voluntarily recognizing the Finns as a people.

  36. JT

    @devaul

    We finns have made peace with our losses.
    Karelia was offered back in the 90’s we did not want it.
    And no people were left behind back then.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evacuation_of_Finnish_Karelia

    In the former Sovjet states they have had only 20 years to do their mourning. Fresher wounds.

    So you are barking up the wrong tree.

  37. JT

    @christian_w

    Nato door closed in 1995, it should have been done then.
    If Sweden joins then we might too (then it is a necessity).

    Who knows I fear that now that Putin has stopped all free media and reversed the more liberal development in Russia things will go worse.
    The Russian economy is based only on oil, the economy is in shambles and ruble has dropped 30%.
    And with all that propaganda and nationalism being stirred up in Russia, who will he hand the keys to that time bomb next?

    The Person following Putin is the one I worry about.

    The matushkas in Ukraine are hoping for the return of USSR prices and pensions.
    Russia can’t deliver that, they will be bitterly disappointed.
    Bygones are bygones you cannot turn back time.

  38. Petruchio

    “ELAINE: Ah yes, our ‘free’ oligarch press. Lets all the news in…NOT.” Yes the ruling class in the USA learned from the Viet Nam war that to implement their agenda they needed to control the flow of information. This is why the ruling elites bribed Congress into allowing all of the media mergers in the 1980’s. So today, only 6 huge media companies control 90% of US media outlets. Then all you have to do is put people who are political clones of each other in charge of these mega media conglomerates and the result is almost unavoidable. The elites have always understood that, for propaganda to work, you must control the narrative on every story.

  39. DeVaul

    Uhh… JT, I actually clicked on that link and read it. It does not follow your interpretation of events, which grows stranger by the minute.

    Here is how the article ends:

    “Since the 1990’s some associations have been calling for returning Karelia back to Finland.”

    There was no mention of anyone “offering” Karelia back to Finland.

    If I were president of Finland, I would get it back before it becomes to Russianized, and I would do it via diplomacy. I am sure Russia would rather have an ally on its northern border with NATO than an enemy or neutral state, so getting a deal done would probably not be too difficult. This is what I mean by your leader not being smart, and now that Christian W has revealed that he flirted with the Bilderberg gang, that means he is, in fact, quite stupid.

    I don’t believe you speak for most Finns, who relocated at the end of WW II because they did not want to be left under Soviet rule, just as the Ostdeutchen fled back to Germany for the same reason.

    Please read the article carefully.

  40. JT

    @devaul

    My grandfather was from Karelia.
    He mourned it his whole life but it was lost. He lived free and prosperous here his whole life.

    What do you mean before it is russianized?
    It was sovjetized 70 years ago, a bit too late now.
    The people who came from there are dead or in their 70’s at least.
    No finns were left there, nearly everyone was relocated.

    If you were president of Finland you would get Karelia back?
    You really have absolutely no clue of the realpolitics in this neck of the woods do you?

    Of course some associations want it back.
    I’m sure some associations want to turn US into a Bitcoin based hemp economy but that is not the official policy of united states.

    There is a strong rumor that when The Sovjet Union fell it was suggested by US that Finland takes up the question of Karelia with Sovjet Union.
    Our then president wisely declined.
    A wise decision If you look at it now 25 years later with everything going on in Crimea.

    We’ve done it all here…
    It’s a 100 year old problem nothing new.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Finno-Soviet_Treaty_of_1948
    “Under the treaty, which was signed on April 6, 1948, the Soviets sought to deter Western or Allied Powers from attacking the Soviet Union through Finnish territory, and the Finns sought to increase Finland’s political independence from the Soviet Union. It thus ensured Finland’s survival as a liberal democracy in close proximity to strategic Soviet regions, such as the Kola Peninsula and the old capital Leningrad.”

  41. DeVaul

    “What do you mean before it is russianized?”

    Before it becomes too late to ask for it back, which would be to the advantage of the Finns. Their independence after WW II was guarranteed by US nuclear weapons, as it was made clear to Stalin that Finland was “hands off”, unlike the Balkan states and the others that ended up behind the Iron Curtain for 50 years. The Soviets were forced to withdraw because world opinion was completely against them on the issue of Finland.

    So, the offering of Karelia back to Finland was just a “strong rumor”. I thought so. Nations don’t offer territory back to other countries for nothing.

    Your father mourned the loss of his homeland his ENTIRE LIFE.

    Interesting.

    Perhaps your president should see the current realpolitik at work now, which is that Russia is a better partner for Finland than NATO and its bankrupt states in Europe. Most of Finland’s natural gas comes from Russia, and Russia is now under attack by our empire, which plans to surround it with military bases and NATO troops. This would be the time to approach the Russians about making a deal before the Russian position is too solid, or before the real shooting begins.

    “A wise decision If you look at it now 25 years later with everything going on in Crimea.”

    I see no connection between Karelia and Crimea. Crimea was given away against the wishes of the residents. Karelia was taken by force and the inhabitants “allowed” to leave. They became refugees that needed government support to be resettled. Since the Russians took it, the Russian population has increased to 650,000 there. Not all of Karelia should be asked for, just the parts that were taken during the Soviet invasion.

  42. JT

    @devaul

    My grandfather. Yes sometimes after a few whiskies he would take out his mandolin and sing old Karelian and Russian songs.
    I could see he always held back tears.

    And you think in light of recent events that is would have been a good idea to have 650 000 Russian speaking former Sovjet Citizens in Finland? Living in a former Sovjet area?
    You see no parallel to Crimea there?

    Besides I’ve been there. The buildings and infrastructure is in pristine Sovjet condition. Last coat of paint 70 years ago.

    After the war they did not want us.
    We were too stubborn in their opinion “a running sore” in Molotovs words.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weapons_Cache_Case

    Sovjet Union always hoped to annex us voluntarily through propaganda and poltical pressure.

    And US had no missiles after WWII, wasn’t it the nazi scientists who built them for you?
    Italian fascists served them pizza while they were working?
    Bilderberger capitalists were funding the whole thing?
    😉
    (a bit of labeling there for entertainment)

    Later US missiles were aimed at Finland since we had the pact of 1948 with Russia. But of course in time we got a lot of support in every way.

    Finland has done this for decades.
    We produce only 8,5% of our energy with natgas.
    100% of which comes from Russia.
    But it can all be replaced with coal and wood.
    It is only used in large centralized heating/electricity production.
    Here we do not use natgas for cooking or directly for heating houses.
    It will be expensive to replace but it can be done.
    So we are not as vulnerable as the former Sovjet states in that regard.

    I hope you don’t take this too seriously though.
    I’m just an idiot and I write here sometimes just to pass time.
    I argue just for fun, it doesn’t mean I’m right.
    Just my opinions, nothing else.
    A different view on things.

  43. DeVaul

    Well, I am only saying that Finland has a right to the return of the lands that the Soviet Union took from it by force, but it would take diplomacy to get them back and I believe that they are substantially inhabited by Karelians and some Finns who remained there. The rest of Karelia is a different matter.

    Also, regaining this lost territory would help Finland by providing it with more forestland. As you pointed out, the natural gas will not last forever, so having more land for trees would help Finland. That is why I would want it back, if I were Finnish.

    However, if the Finns don’t want the land back, then who am I to say they should demand it back through negotiations?

    It is, however, what I would do, just for the future of Finland.

  44. Christian W

    @JT

    The Person following Putin is the one I worry about.

    Putin has had to crack down on the media because the US is using it to try to find leverage. The US is busy chipping away at every little crack they can find. Of course that means that Putin and his gang are trying to make sure there are no cracks, which of course is disastrous for any notion of “democracy” (the notion of which, as we all know, the US just loves to use as a sledgehammer).

    If the pressure wasn’t constantly on maybe Russia could over time become more democratic, but as it is now it won’t happen. “Democracy”, as things stand now, would be a disaster for Russia, which is not the way things are supposed to be…

    As for the person coming after Putin, I guess a lot depends on how successful Putin manages to be with the rather drastic changes he will now try and undertake for Russia. He will try and decouple Russia from the western banking system and restructure the Russian industries etc.

  45. JT

    @christian_w

    “Putin has had to crack down on the media because the US is using it to try to find leverage.”

    really. so we can blame US for that too?

    “He will try and decouple Russia from the western banking system and restructure the Russian industries etc.”

    really :D. Russian industries are I’d say very well decoupled already but he will decouple from the trillions of dollars and euros too?
    Will the oligarghs move their money to Russian banks from London and Zürich?

    “If the pressure wasn’t constantly on maybe Russia could over time become more democratic, but as it is now it won’t happen.”

    I agree. I did not like the Russia bashing during olympics one bit.
    Teemu Selanne came back and said they were the best olympics organized olympics he ever took part in.
    I do understand the Russian side in many respects but it is isolating itself again.
    Trade with Russia is down 10% already and tourism is down 30%.
    Russians are crazy, funny people, melancholy same as finns.
    They just can’t get a break. Ever.
    It will not happen, I thought that this time it would.
    I feel very sad about all this, such a disappoinment. I thought the iron curtain days and cold war days were over.

  46. JT

    @devaul

    “I believe that they are substantially inhabited by Karelians and some Finns who remained there.”

    they were shot or taken to Siberia.
    We took some people here after the fall of the Sovjet Union.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ingrian_Finns
    But they did not live in Karelia.

    “The treaty did not require Finland to empty the ceded territory, but almost nobody was willing to stay, and almost 100% of the affected population chose to relocate, taking their belongings with them.”

    I very much doubt that will ever happen.

    Listen to this it is a beautiful song every finn knows.
    That is all we have left of that place. A sad memory and this song.

    In the hills of the Karelia

    Trees of the Karelia are already budding,
    Birch forests are at last becoming bushy.
    A cuckoo is already cuckooing there and it’s spring,
    My yearning to go there is bottomless.
    ….

  47. emsnews

    WWIII is totally cuckoo.

  48. Christian W

    I’m sure there are Russians who want a fair, free and democratic Russia and are working towards that. But like the Egyptian people, like many Ukranians and other people the US are experts at hitching on to a genuine cause and subvert it for it’s purposes. The US undermined Ukraine for decades until it got to this point. Look at how they operated in Kiev.

    The US funds all kinds of organizations to covertly do it’s work for them, ostensibly in the name of freedom and democracy. It’s like when the CIA used the polio vaccination program to get at Bin Laden. USAID is a US State Department destabilization program as often as not. It’s how the US operates. They just sponsor a complete range of programs, from Garry Kasparov “regime critics” to color revolutions to twitter campaigns like the one in Cuba. Beware the Nulands coming with armfuls of cookies.

    Many banks in Europe and the US are basically zombies still. Barclays bank in the UK just created a “roska pankki”, a “bad bank” and is cutting 19,000 jobs mostly in the UK.

    http://www.theguardian.com/business/2014/may/08/barclays-to-cut-19000-jobs-scale-back-investment-bank-antony-jenkins

    Russia is about to sign a mega deal with China for oil and gas exports. If anyone are masters at surviving a bumpy ride it’s the Russians.

    As I said in another post, the new Iron Curtian this time is to keep Europe IN not out. It’s the US that is slamming the Iron Curtain up this time.

  49. JT

    @christian_w

    “I’m sure there are Russians who want a fair, free and democratic Russia and are working towards that.”

    I’m sure russian intellectuals and former business men will write many beautiful novels in prison once again.

    I think I wrote the end of this latest Russian endeavour here already.

    after all the huffing and puffing with nationalism and state control go wrong again then the blame is placed firmly somewhere else.

    My only interest in this is that if they want to rebuild their firewall/iron curtain they should build it to the east of me.

  50. JT

    @christian_w

    That is the problem with communism, state control and silencing all opposition and critisism.
    In the long run you are just bound to royally f*ck things up.
    And Putin is not fixing anything, the opposite.

    Isn’t that the reason why we are in this mess in the first place?

    If someone in the Sovjet Union in 1954 could have said to Khrushchev:
    “Hey man, you’re on your second bottle of vodka today and it’s been a long day, so why don’t we sleep on this giving Crimea to Ukraine decision?”

    We wouldn’t be in this mess at all?

    Or if someone could have said to Yeltsin.

    “Hey man, you’re on your third bottle of Vodka today, why don’t we keep some stake in our energy companies and not sell them all to american investment bankers.”

    You have to see the humour in these things.
    😉

  51. JT

    Then after you put all your intellectuals and your opponents in prison or chase them to exile you start feeling that you are surrounded by idiots.

    –> You start feeling irreplacable –> your yes men enhance this bogus self image –> you want to make your mark in history as the greatest man ever….

    It an age old tale….

  52. JT

    @christian_w

    Now the master plan in Russia is to increase state control, put opposition to jail and invest heavily (500 billion in the next 10 years) to the military.
    And decouple from the rest of the world.

    Sounds like an excellent plan, except that it isn’t.
    It is yet another disaster for the Russian people.

  53. emsnews

    JT, your accurate descriptions of the US elitist government is correct. After all, press censorship is quite real here.

    FOR EXAMPLE: When the NYT back in 2000 wanted to do a story with me about Bush Jr.’s fractured military career, Haley Barbour, head of the GOP back then, visited the NYT head honcho and THREATENED HIM so he chickened out.

    Phil Donahue, when he was about to have me appear on TV, five minutes before the cameras rolled, came running into the room to yell at me in complete hysteria that I was to NOT appear due to Bush Sr. chief of staff calling him.

    So yes, the people running the US government do interfere with the news and prevent people from talking about forbidden things!

    Now the real question is, why do YOU think NATO is your friend?

  54. emsnews

    And about torture and political prisoners: I agree with JT that the US is the leading nation doing both. Wow.

    Putin certainly doesn’t have any ‘off the book’ prisons in Cuba.

  55. JT

    @elaine

    I don’t think Nato is my friend and I hope we can stay neutral.

    Russia took Crimea based on a plan because it had the chance, there is gas and oil there (was about to go to americans) and it is primarily Russian anyway.

    I hope we can stay neutral but now that the Russians are huffing and puffing with nationalism and are mainly concentrating on putting media under FSB control and directing money mainly to military spending it looks very much like we might have no choice.
    Who the hell knows who gets the keys to the insane asylym after Putin.

    UN, Geneva accords and all international treaties have been flushed down the toilet by Bush and now Putin.

    Sure as hell does not look good.

    The Russians themselves think that Russia has to be ruled with an iron fist and democracy does not work there, maybe they are right.
    But they seem a tad too interested in their defenseless neighbours again.

    I fear that at some point they need a bogus external enemy to divert attention away from domestic problems.
    Or they get the idea that attacking Finland might be a good way to destabilize the eurozone.

    Anyway in Crimea they will now do the usual dance.

    No person, no problem as they in Russia.
    So human right violations are a given, don’t you worry about that.
    Have you forgotten how they leveled Grozny?

    So hope for the best and expect the worst.

    We have forgotten why we set up UN and those treaties.
    Too much time has passed from the last WW.

  56. JT

    @elaine

    I think Ban Ki Moon should put Bush on trial for war crimes.
    Obama on trial for droning.

    Putin at least puts up an effort to hide direct Russian involvement.
    US doesn’t even bother anymore.

    But that is not going to happen is it?

    IMO the world needs global unions and taxes on capital movements.
    To balance global money markets, corporations, tax havens and free flow of capital.

    But how could that happen?
    I don’t know, no mechanism for that.

    So I just try to get by with the system we have.
    Thinking about this too much poisons ones soul, I have to go hug my dogs and plant some stuff in my garden now to balance this out of my system.
    😉

  57. DeVaul

    “they were shot or taken to Siberia.”

    I took my information about population make-up of Karelia from Wikipedia just yesterday, so some Finns and Karelians must have moved back after everyone was shot (according to you — no official record of that was presented to us or on Wikipedia).

    I also assumed that they probably moved back into the former Finnish parts of Karelia instead of the Russian parts, which just seems to make sense.

    More importantly, however, I want to say that I strongly disagree with your virulent Russophobia attitude. I don’t recall the Finns opening their borders when Soviet troops began massing on them in 1939-1940. Instead, they created the “Mannerheim Line”. (You like to talk about the Sovjets as if they are still here, so let’s just do that).

    Why would the Finns isolate themselves like that?

    Didn’t they understand that creating an Iron Curtain between them and the Soviet Union was counterproductive and would hurt their economy?

    What the hell were they thinking?

  58. DeVaul

    Oh, and give your dogs a hug for me. They’re going to need it.

    Are they Siberian Huskies? Does Finland have a breed of its own?

    Just curious. I am partial to Collies and Shetland Sheepdogs.

  59. JT

    “so some Finns and Karelians must have moved back after everyone was shot”

    99% of Finnish karelians left.
    400 000 people 12% of the population of Finland.

    After that Stalin moved people to Finnish-Karelia from allover Russia to repopulate it.
    He did that twice to be exact. Once after winter war and again after WWII.

    I know this seems strange because it is a thing that has very rarely been done in history and it is part of the WWII history that the winners do not talk about much.
    Karelian finns just packed their bags and left.
    And history tells us that it was the right decision from what happened to Estonians for example.
    10% of the population of Estonia was deported or sent to Gulags.

    Karelians escaped that faith by moving out.

    Have you ever heard of these?
    “In February 1956, Nikita Khrushchev in his speech On the Personality Cult and its Consequences condemned the deportations as a violation of Leninist principles, asserting as a joke that the Ukrainians avoided such a fate “only because there were too many of them and there was no place to which to deport them.” His government reversed most of Stalin’s deportations, although it was not until as late as 1991 that the Crimean Tatars, Meskhetian Turks and Volga Germans were allowed to return en masse to their homelands.”
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Population_transfer_in_the_Soviet_Union

    I often hear this and it is sad.
    You really should read a book about what your allies did in eastern europe after WWII.

    And I know it was the Sovjet Union that did that not Russia.
    And mostly Stalin only not his followers.
    And that nobody suffered more than the nations of Russia.
    I have no right to complain.

    Hopefully those days will never return.

  60. JT

    @devaul

    As I said earlier. I have no complaints towards finnish politicians.
    At some point in the 70’s when the Sovjet Union was blooming and most succesfull even it seemed almost ok. Until the downhill began.
    I understand why many people were drawn to it back then.

    I find that it is quite the miracle that we have been here as a free western society for almost 100 years.

    Or pure luck maybe? I’m not a religious man. Combination of extreme luck and a few smart leaders drinking in the sauna with Sovjet leaders.

    Only 30-35% of Finns are in favour of joining Nato. That number might be up now to 40-45% due to Crimea.
    Sweden and Finland are neutral and I hope we can be in the future too.

    It is so complicated.
    I just talked with an Estonian who remembered her happy childhood in Sovjet Estonia but then there are those whose family members were deported who will never forgive.
    One person working for me is from Ukraine. One of her university friends died in Kiev during the riots.
    She just says that if the Russians come she will flee to Sweden.

    It is very, very complicated to explain these things.
    We all form our own view on things.
    None of us has the right perception of reality.
    Best to forget and forgive at some point it was a long time ago.

  61. JT

    @devaul

    Russophobia what does that mean?
    People here have a healthy fear of Russian KGB/FSB.
    Elaine has nuclearattackphobia and volcanophobia.
    And you have a phobia of phobic people.
    We all have these.
    Fear is healthy and useful, keeps us alive as a species.
    😉

  62. JT

    @devaul

    and Russians have very severe natophobia.
    Estonia and Albania are planning a joint attack right?
    😀

    I listened to something interesting today in a podcast from Germany.
    It said that EU has accomplished one goal which is important.
    EU members no longer fear being attacked by eachother.
    So in that respect it has been a success story.
    So the french no longer have germanophobia?

  63. emsnews

    You have to be kidding me!

    The EU is teeming with people who hate their own governments and hate each other and speak other languages and are other religions and have an extremely filthy, long, thousands of years history of killing each other over the smallest thing!

    Good grief.

    Far from ending, it is beginning. Ethnic warfare in Ukraine will spread, not vanish. This is Yugoslavia double.

  64. Christian W

    That’s what I have been saying. Supporting real live Nazis in Ukraine and Eastern Europe is the end of democracy in the EU.

    It’s the beginning of the old divide and conquer and a deliberate torch to democracy and liberal society.

  65. JT

    @elaine

    The whole world is teaming with people like that.
    I was not talking about Ukraine, I was talking about the EU.

    The girl from Ukraine I know does not hate other Ukrainians at all.
    She is just sadened by the whole thing.
    She however hates all political parties in Ukraine, every single one is corrupted.
    And she hates the oligarghs.
    And she hates Russia for meddling and she also wonders will the west help either If Russia attacks (we will not).
    So she just quit her country and left.

    What on earth is that talk about religion or ethnicity.
    60% of Ukrainians are not religious at all.
    30% are orthodox christians.

    They speak two languages that’s it.
    Nothing like Yugoslavia.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_Ukraine#Religious_structure_of_society

  66. JT

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Politics_of_Ukraine#Parties_currently_represented_in_the_Verkhovna_Rada_.28Ukraine.27s_parliament.29

    Svoboda has 35 seats in the parliament so 8%.
    So calling all Ukrainian politicians nazis is a bit of stretch isn’t it?
    Calling all of them corrupted is right but then again that goes for 90% of all countries in the world.

    But it is of course mediasexy to talk about nazis and fascists.

    They should have another try with elections If they can.
    But propably this mess continues for years now.

    What exactly is the solution you guys support?
    Half of Ukraine joining Russia?

    New elections is the only way forward IMO.

    ΩΩΩ

    ELAINE: You are getting increasingly irrational.

    The Slavoda gang has been BEATING UP anyone who opposes their coup. In Parliament, I put up the videos showing this here on my blog which you obviously ignored.

    They are the ‘muscle’ of the coup. The ‘dirty fighters’ used by the coup and they are NAZIS and god help us all, you better fear Nazis for there are Nazis all over the planet itching to do horrible things.

  67. DeVaul

    Ethinic Russians will want to join Russia, and they do not care what other people think or believe, especially you, JT. That’s part of “ethnicity”.

    These republics they are setting up are just stepping stones to joining Russia as regions within the Russian Federation. That is very clear. They have no wish to remain tiny little republics with no power or ability to defend themselves, so a referendum to join Russia will eventually be voted on.

    Those republics with a very mixed population will experience a lot of violence. There will be precious little hugging and kissing, especially since Kiev and the EU will be bussing in mercenaries from western Ukraine while refusing to pay the gas bill due to Gazprom.

    I am surprised at your lack of realism, JT.

  68. JT

    @elaine

    Well which EU countries do you see going into war with eachother in the foreseeable future?
    I mean no disrespect but you always expect the end of the world with everything.

    Nato has Greece and Turkey.
    That is a pretty bad relationship.

    Katalonia vs Spain?
    Scotland-England?
    France vs Germany?
    Fin-Sweden?

    And what exactly would you propose that is better than EU to prevent wars in Europe?
    It has been pretty peaceful here for the past years.

    Texas is talking about leaving US. Should the federalists emigrate from there?

    And some Russian politicians want Alaska back.
    Which they have every right to take back as it is former Russian territory and there are 3.5 million people of Russian origin living in the US?
    Or is US soil different from Ukrainian or how does this go?

  69. JT

    @devaul

    “Ethinic Russians will want to join Russia, and they do not care what other people think or believe, especially you, JT. That’s part of “ethnicity”.

    People like me?
    So you don’t think anyone should ask the Ukrainians what they want?
    I doubt very much more than 50 % want to join Russia.

    Like in elections for example?

  70. JT

    @devaul

    And what do you think the rest of Ukrainians should do?
    Emigrate?

  71. emsnews

    Um, 90% of the people in the US are ‘immigrants’ you know. Sheesh.

    My family came here 350 years ago due to political disputes in England. Had to hack out a new life here literally.

  72. JT

    @elaine

    So the majority of people in Ukraine, 25 million people who do not want live under the oppression of an aggressive imprerial group of KGB thugs just has to leave their homes and come to the US?

    Forget all dreams about democracy, freedom of speech or uncorrupt legal system and just quit.

    Excellent advice.

  73. Christian W

    So the majority of people in Ukraine, 25 million people who do not want live under the oppression of an aggressive imprerial group of KGB thugs

    You seriously fail to see that the current regime in Kiev is right wing fascist? That this Ukranian coup regime in turn is led by US right wing fascists? And somehow magically they will lead the Ukrainian people to democracy, freedom of speech and an uncorrupt legal system?

    The whole point with the excercise in Ukraine is to bring right wing corporate fascism, big time, to Europe. At this point in time the EU is barely keeping it’s nose above water but soon enough the Bilderbergers and Neocons will pull us down under. The killing blow will be NATO expansion (economic militarism or military keynesianism) and the TTIP, the treaty which none of us in the “democratic EU” gets to vote for or against.

    Putin is irrelevant. He is giant red herring necessary for this enormous con. NATO and the Neocons are playing on Russophobia brilliantly . Ukraine has always been a deeply integrated part of Russia/the old Soviet System. Russia has a large part of it’s military industries in Eastern Ukraine, crucial parts of the high tech stuff is made there. Of course Putin has to react to that as well as to Crimea. It is self evident that Putin has to react to threats to his military strategies. To call Putin aggressive in that light is insane, frankly.

    Both Crimea and Ukraine have been an integral part of Russia for centuries. In Crimea and Eastern Russia the majority of people are Russians or of ethnic Russian background. Using your own argument, why should those people be forced to join with a right wing fascist government who will treat them like Palestinians in their own nation, never mind any bollocks about freedom, democracy and uncorrupt legal system.

    Kiev is the birthplace of Russia AND other ethnicities. It’s a bit like JERUSALEM in that regard. I have an ancester from in my family tree from Kiev, her name was Elsisiv. Elsa and Siv are to this day Scandianvian names. The Russ people in Kiev invited Vikings/Scandinavians in to rule them a thousand years ago, because the Scandinavians had a legal system and were organized and good rulers. Elsisiv is from that historic period.

  74. Christian W

    Putin is SMART. There is a reason he is suggesting Federation for Eastern Ukraine. That will save the people in the East from the fate of the Palestinians, ethnic cleansing and suppression at the hands of the ultranationalists in Kiev, yet give the Ukranians the opportunity to make their own way as they see fit. Otherwise it is the equivalent to Egypt that awaits Ukraine. A US puppet state ruled with an iron fist by thugs in Kiev.

  75. JT

    @christian_w

    You guys really eat up all KGB propanganda hook, bait and all.
    90% of the violence has been done by outside provocateurs.

    That is exactly the same tactic Putin used in Chechnya, Georgia, Tadzikistan,

    They stir up FSB arranged violence and then Russia sends in “peacekeepers” to freeze the conflict.

    Media outlets were blacked out and Russian news agencies run scare news about nazis to the population who only speaks Russian.
    (it works even better in Russia than over here).
    And don’t think it is the same news you see on English RT.
    It is total bullshit scare propaganda 24/7.

    The svoboda party is only 8% of the parliament that VOTED unanomously to oust the president that fled.
    Even Putin said that the west does not support Svododa.
    😀

    You guys even believe that Georgia attacked Russia.
    Yes they did after civilians were being shelled by Russian backed rebels.
    They gave into the provocation.

    You guys seem to forget that it is the duty of Kiev to restore order.
    As it was the duty of Georgian president to protect Georgians.

    Russia has absolutely no business or right to interfere to Ukrainian internal matters or to take its land.

    UN resolution 100-11.

    You guys stand with the human right superpowers of
    Armenia and Belarus, as well as North Korea, Zimbabwe, Sudan, Syria, Venezuela, Nicaragua, Cuba and Bolivia.

    If there are peacekeepers needed then UN should send them as usual with ETYJ as a mediator.
    (they will not be needed after Russia stops).

    US is doing the same thing in Syria of course but that has nothing to do with Ukraine.

    Russia does not oppose Ukraine joining the EU.
    It want to destroy Ukrainian soveignrety enough so that they cannot join Nato.
    Russias economy is based 90% on energy revenues so they need someone to pay Ukraine’s energy bills anyway.
    The KGB thugs in Moscow don’t give a rats ass about Ukrainian Russians or nazis.
    They want to preserve their own power and keep the money coming in to Putin’s oligarghs.

  76. JT

    @cristian_w

    Well you should look at the parties in the parliament.
    Svoboda 8%.
    A right right wing party, that’s all.
    Tymošenko, communists, party of the regions, surely the whole parliament is on fascist.
    But of course in your lingo it is. All opponents of Russia are always fascists.

    “Kiev is the birthplace of Russia AND other ethnicities. It’s a bit like JERUSALEM in that regard.”

    Well I’m sure also Kim Jong-Un is all misty eyed and in tears over Pong dynasty shrines in Soul.
    He just has to pucker up and make his utopia so splendid that SKoreans vote for joining NK.
    Those are the rules.

    Ukrainian people have to decide what they want after elections.
    Not the KGB thugs in Moscow.

  77. JT

    Putin is playing a losing game with his old voting at gunpoint and isolation tactics.

    China is smart as Elaine always says.
    China understands that prosperous neighbours and free trade makes it rich.
    Putin, now president for life, tries to revive the Sovjet Union of his childhood.
    The Sovjet Union did well in the seventies.

    Times have changed and the problem is that none of the occupied states of europe want those that nightmare to return
    Lukasenko in Belarus, another president for life is all they have.

    China still has the communist party on top of the president.
    They have a more viable system of decision making and they look to the future not the past like Russia.

  78. emsnews

    Voting at gun point???? And pray tell, what is the ruler of Ukraine? How did HE get ‘elected’????

    JT, you are digging a deep grave here.

  79. JT

    The winner of the next presidential elections of course.

    The criminals and thugs led by FSB in eastern Ukraine of course try to prevent the elections from happening, so Russia can say it does not respect the results. Deniability.

    The thug that was put in place as “puppetleader” of Crimea had 5% of the vote in last Crimean elections.

    They had to make sure they had scary enough guys and enough guns at voting posts so nodody else could show up.
    96% is of course a tad shy of the traditional 100% of votes they got there.
    Tatars did not show up at all, nor did the 20% that were against joining Russia.

    Now you have lived in a democracy all your life so you should have already learned that the usual voting result is pretty much always in the 55-45 spread range.

    The parliament unanomously voted the last president out after he fled.
    There is a reason to this of course.
    That is how these verticals of power fall. Once the top fails everyone else runs for cover in order to avoid be hit by the rubble.

    Same thing with Putin.
    That is why they just have to take full control of media, schools, history and money in Russia.

    Who is it in your opinion? The leader of Ukraine.

    Those are of course not my ideas. I listen to a lot of podcast of specialists, researchers and political analysts.
    + I know an old family friend who just came back Ukraine. He does this for a living.

    Now I can accept that Crimea is gone now. And Russia took it by force when Ukraine was weak. Doesn’t make it right though.
    (as one of our old presidents said, “I can understand, but I cannot accept.”

    Russian motives are no purer than US ones.
    There is oil and gas in Crimea + a military base.

    And the economy of Russia is in shambles, all modernisation efforts of industries have failed. Projecting military force abroad makes Putin very popular in Russia, now they accept his failures better and the Oligarghs can continue to ship money to British and Zürich banks.

    It is my version what is yours?
    Nazis and fascists?
    And citizens fighting back with SAM missiles they picked up at the supermarket?

  80. JT

    That is the problem with these semi-dictatorships and eternal presidents.
    In the US you can always blame your failures on your past elected leaders.
    Nixon, Carter, whoever.

    The leaders change so you can feel good about yourselves and blame it on the past guys.

    In non-democratic countries you cant.
    You always have place the blame abroad, since the leadership cannot be changed.
    ;).

    The researchers know this in advance an make predictions on what will happen by examining the propaganda aimed at Russian citizens.

    Hey that was pretty good cool IMO. Didn’t read that from anywhere.
    😉

  81. JT

    of course this happens everywhere.
    you had your weapons of mass destruction in Iraq stuff over there.
    I saw a documentary about the few politicians that dared to oppose the war.
    You should reward them by voting.

    But now afterwards (and during) you can blame it on Bush.
    In Russia they can do that only every 20-30 years.
    Now they blame Krutchev.
    😀

    Imagine if Cheney was the president for life, for a little term he would change places with Bush, Trump is the secretary of treasury and Koch brothers run the media.
    And you of course would be shipped to prison for your opinions.
    Bill Gates is deported for his liberal views in this scenario.

    That is how things lie IMO.
    Everything is shit but at least one has to see some humour in this stuff.

  82. emsnews

    If you backpedal any harder, you will rear end someone.

  83. Jim R

    JT,
    Pictures or it didn’t happen! People with other stories to tell have lots of pictures. http://simply-iskander.livejournal.com/ … If they’re all photoshop jobs, then the FSB has made a lot of progress over the years. Videos too, and audio tracks, and bloggers and stuff.

    Speaking of which, there was a picture that made the news the other day, and not much of a backstory to it. Or not one I can easily read, since Cyrillic is not my first alphabet.

    Therefore I have made my own story and it goes like this … somewhere in Northern Europe, a theater company is doing a production of “Annie Get Your Gun”, and decided to have some fun in the parking lot. Then they put the picture up on the interweb just for laughs and to see how far it would get.

    For all the horrific reports of atrocities in southeastern Ukraine, I have no such glib explanation.

  84. JT

    Since you all are so interested in fascism.
    For balance you should read up on Russian fascism which has been gaining support in Russia since 2008 (that is when the shift happened there).

    Alexander Dugin
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aleksandr_Dugin
    “He has criticized the “Euro-Atlantic” involvement in the 2004 Ukrainian presidential election as a scheme to create a “cordon sanitaire” around Russia, much like the French and British attempt post-World War I.

    Dugin has criticized Putin for the “loss” of Ukraine, and accused his Eurasianism of being “empty.” In 2005 he announced the creation of an anti-Orange youth front to fight similar threats to Russia. The Eurasian Youth Union created and sponsored by Dugin was accused of vandalism and extremist activities. The organization was banned in Ukraine by the courts and Alexander Dugin was declared persona non grata due to his anti-Ukrainian activities. He was deported back to Russia when he arrived at Simferopol International Airport in June 2007.

    Before war broke out between Russia and Georgia in 2008, Dugin visited South Ossetia and predicted, “Our troops will occupy the Georgian capital Tbilisi, the entire country, and perhaps even Ukraine and the Crimean Peninsula, which is historically part of Russia, anyway.” Afterwards he said Russia should “not stop at liberating South Ossetia but should move further,” and “we have to do something similar in Ukraine.”

    In March 2014 Dugin envisioned a “Russian spring”, in which Europe would drift away from the US and close ranks with Russia who then would use its new power to help other countries around the world to “break loose of American hegemony”.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aleksandr_Dugin

    Russia is bringing this head ideologue of Kremlin to Finland in a few weeks.
    By a group apptly named antifascits (proper fsb name of russian fascists :D)

    His ideas for Finland.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foundations_of_Geopolitics

    “Finland should be absorbed into Russia. Southern Finland will be combined with the Republic of Karelia and northern Finland will be “donated to Murmansk Oblast”.”

    Russia all of a sudden wants to talk to Finland about giving Karelia back?
    Well as you can see it is the other way around.
    They want to create instability and border disputes in order to create problems similar to Georgia and Ukraine.

    Anyway I think I’ll take a break from writing here for now.
    I said my piece, think for yourselves.

    New Imperial Russia and Tsar Putin are playing old tactics of grabbing land bit by bit.

    Now I would have no problem with eurasianism if they did it the proper way.
    Through peaceful talks, treaties and economic benefits and voluntary co-operation.
    But they of course cannot do it the proper way.

    Right now they have nothing to offer and rely on guns and military.
    Something we hoped was a thing of the past.
    (last time anybody annexed land was in 1990 when Saddam annexed parts of Kuwait).

    Sad.

  85. JT

    http://www.buzzfeed.com/rosiegray/how-the-truth-is-made-at-russia-today

    So you can rely on RT news on Snowden.
    But you are a fool if you believe anything they say about Ukraine.

  86. emsnews

    Good lord, I read ALL the available news.

    And you seem to be utterly at sea when it comes to Russia, JT. Which EU or US government ISN’T ‘fascist’????

    Fascism is on the march and you think it is one sided. That is sad indeed. It is crushing democracy all over the planet, and it is led by THE VERY RICH. Who rule us with ruthless control.

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