Religious Fanatics Make Diplomacy Impossible

ΩΩDue to medical family emergencies, I couldn’t post a story yesterday.  So today has a ton of international stories that clearly show how the religious dog wags the secular government tail.  I just wrote the previous sentence 12 hours ago and had to rush off to the hospital yet again.  Back to today’s story, if I can even remember what I was doing…oh, yes, getting to the bottom of how religions complicate all international relations and can be the trigger of truly awful, long, grinding wars.

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ΩΩNormally, when I write a story, it is very easy, I read and assemble the news stories and then link them to each other in a longer story.  But today, this just isn’t possible so I will try my best to pull together these various items and get them hitched up like a 20 mule team and whip it along.  First, we go to China and see what is now old news about how Clinton supposedly got China on board to isolate and destroy Iran:

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Iranian official continues nuclear talks in China – World Politics, World – The Independent

Saeed Jalili met with Wang Jiarui, the head of the Communist Party’s international affairs office. Today’s meeting came a day after China would not confirm US reports that it had dropped its opposition to possible new sanctions against Iran.

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ΩΩThere were a number of hysterically wrong stories in the West’s media.  There has been this relentless and brutal push by Zionists teaming up with Sunnis who are scared that Iraq and Iran will unite, as well as maybe even half of Afghanistan!….in a greater Shiite sphere of influence.  The Israelis hate Iran because Iran makes the Shi’ites in Lebanon much stronger.  So, for the Grail of a Greater Israel, they have to get rid of anyone supporting the Shi’ites in Lebanon as well as prevent Iran from backing Hamas.

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China Denies Backing Iran Sanctions — News from Antiwar.com

Yesterday’s claims that the Chinese government had, after months of US cajoling, finally agreed to support sanctions against Iran appear to be premature, and China has reiterated its past position that diplomacy, not sanctions, should resolve the issue.

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“We will strengthen communication with other parties and engage all parties to promote a proper resolution by diplomatic means,” insisted Chinese foreign ministry spokesman Qin Gang.

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ΩΩI expected this.  The news that  China would help the US and Israel crush Iran and thus, expand their own powers in the heart of the biggest oil pumping region of the planet, just made zero sense to me.  And evidently, to the Chinese.  They often have to correct the US in these matters because our diplomats are in la-la-land, just making up things as they go along.  Reality has little value.  Below is a very important story that I feel, explains 99% of the real story behind the US sanctions against Iran:

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Hamas currency speculation bears fruit – Israel Business, Ynetnews

The Kuwaiti paper Aljarida reported Tuesday that Hamas is in financial straits due to increasing pressure on its main backer, Iran. This is also the reason given by Gaza residents for the Hamas police break-in at the Palestine Bank branch, during which $800,000 were stolen.

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The siege and the crisis aren’t making things easy for Hamas leaders to obtain funds, according to sources in the organization’s rival group, Fatah. The sources say that each day Hamas pockets dozens, perhaps hundreds of thousands of shekels – the result of currency trading made possible by exchange rate differences between black market rates and Gaza bank rates, and between Gaza rates and Egyptian rates.

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ΩΩOf course, Hamas won an election, fair and square and Gaza has been under siege ever since.  Fatah continued to represent these poor people in negotiations and in international aid but the fraud who runs Fatah continues to stay in office despite being a fake and a fraud, of course.  He and his evil minions support crushing Hamas which is why they sat on their behinds during the massacre of the Gaza Ghetto.  Then, Israel turned its sphinx eye upon the West Bank and Jerusalem and continued to hammer the captives living there.

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ΩΩOf course, Fatah is now in a fatal downward spiral.  Its days as a convenient Quisling operation coming to an odious end.  Of course, getting rid of Iran is #1 to the Zionists who have never forgotten for one instant, the real reason they hate Iran.  Now, on to Afghanistan.  The brother of Karzai is corrupt.  Imagine that!  And Obama debased himself by suddenly sneaking over there to beg Karzai to please not be a Krazy Kat but to put up the illusion of being slightly less corrupt.  This, of course, irritated him no end.

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Karzai rails against foreign presence, accuses West of engineering voter fraud – washingtonpost.com

President Hamid Karzai on Thursday delivered one of his most stinging criticisms to date of the foreign presence in Afghanistan, accusing the West and the United Nations of wanting a “puppet government” and of orchestrating fraud in last year’s election.

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ΩΩHAHAHAHA.  You can’t make this up!  This reminds me of…Vietnam.  Exact same thing, in fact.  How weird is this???? Are we stuck in a time vector that keeps bringing us back to the Vietnam war over and over again?  Wow.  Well, maybe we can assassinate Karzai and replace him with another, different puppet.  Certainly, this one is too Iran/China friendly!

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No means no, PM tells Clinton – The Globe and Mail

Prime Minister Stephen Harper told U.S. Secretary of State Hillary Clinton this morning that Canada’s combat mission in Afghanistan ends in 2011. Mr. Harper and Mrs. Clinton met for 20 minutes at a hotel in Aylmer, Que., across the river from Ottawa where G8 foreign ministers are meeting today.

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Mrs. Clinton did not ask that Canada keep troops in Afghanistan past the 2011 deadline, a Harper official told The Globe. Rather, the issue came up as the two were speaking about issues in Iran and Afghanistan.


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ΩΩBegging bowl in hand, Clinton roams the planet like some wandering peddler who keeps dragging around the same dead camel, begging people to buy it.  This is beyond disgusting.  We should imitate all our allies who are ALL leaving us holding the Zionist baggage and dismount this dead camel and run from the rotting carcass as fast as humanly possible.  Even so, our nation still might collapse into bankruptcy like the former USSR.

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ΩΩI suppose we can change our name just like Russia did after the USSR died.  What shall we call ourselves?  The Disjointed States?

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Obama: Netanyahu understands he must take some bold steps – Haaretz – Israel News

“I think Prime Minister Netanyahu intellectually understands that he has got to take some bold steps. I think politically he feels it. But it’s not just on the Israeli side. I’ve been very clear that the Palestinians have to take steps,” Obama said.

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The U.S. president also said that the recent tension between his administration and the Israeli government is merely a “disagreement among friends” and emphasized the strength of the bond between the United States and Israel.

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ΩΩThe ONLY steps the Zionists will take will be to kick Obama in the balls…again.  Let’s see what bold steps are whacking our balls:

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‘Israel won’t change nuclear policy’

Israel does not plan on offering any concessions regarding its purported nuclear capability at the Nuclear Security Summit that US President Barack Obama will host in Washington, DC, next month, a top defense official said on Sunday.

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The US and Russia announced on Friday that they would sign a new START agreement that will reduce the nuclear arsenals in both countries by 30 percent. Following the signing of the agreement on April 8, Obama will host the two-day Nuclear Security Summit, aimed at preventing rogue regimes and terrorists from obtaining nuclear weapons.

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According to the top defense official, Israel does not plan on announcing any changes to its current policy of ambiguity when it comes to its nuclear program.


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ΩΩNo nation can beat Israel in the ‘rogue nation’ beauty pageant.  The ultimate rogue thing a nation can do is have a massive nuclear bomb program and then lie about it.  And even after everyone knows there is this program, still refuse to negotiate anything at all and to keep it growing at the same time, screaming about anyone else doing the same thing.  This has got to be the stupidest and crudest form of chutzpah, ever.

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Arabs Weigh Alternatives as Peace Stalls – NYTimes.com

The Middle East peace process suffered a fresh setback this month when the Palestinians said indirect talks with the Israelis would not take place unless Israel reversed a decision to build 1,600 new homes in Ramat Shlomo, an ultra-Orthodox neighborhood in East Jerusalem.

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Speaking to Arab leaders here at a summit meeting of the 22-member Arab League, Mr. Moussa said that the peace process had reached a turning point and that it was time for Arab states to stand up to Israel.

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“The peace process has entered a new stage, perhaps the last stage,” he said. “We have accepted the efforts of mediators.” He also lamented the years spent in painstaking negotiations.

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“We have accepted an open-ended peace process, but that resulted in a loss of time,” he said. “And we did not achieve anything and allowed Israel to practice its policy for 20 years.”

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ΩΩThe Sunnis still won’t do anything.  The corrupt leaders of Saudi Arabia continue to refuse to unite Islam and of course, bin Laden’s entire business is all about overthrowing the royalty of the oil pumping nations.  They let down the Palestinians from day one to day one hundred and intend to do this until the day one thousand and one.

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Lawyer: Beheading planned in Saudi sorcery case – CNN.com

Sibat is the former host of a popular call-in show that aired on Beirut-based satellite TV channel “Sheherazade.” According to his lawyer, Sibat would predict the future on his show and give out advice to his audience.

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El Khansa told CNN her client was arrested by Saudi Arabia’s religious police (known as the Mutawa’een) and charged with sorcery while visiting the country in May 2008. Sibat was in Saudi Arabia to perform the Islamic religious pilgrimage known as Umra.

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ΩΩThe Iranian government isn’t beheading ‘witches’!  So why are the much more civilized Iranians called names if a woman demonstrating against the government is shot while the Saudi royals are called ‘moderates’ while beheading visitors who they decide are ‘witches’?  How insane is this?  Where is the outrage?

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ΩΩU.S. seeks 4-month Jerusalem building freeze: report – washingtonpost.com:  And got kicked very hard in the balls for even mentioning this in public.  AIPAC raged through Congress and got its own way.  UN chief says Israeli settlement activities illegal: this news also enraged AIPAC and all the traitors in Congress who got even more enraged when Obama suggested the US might not veto resolutions about East Jerusalem.

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National Identity Bill Divides Slovakia – NYTimes.com

Since the Berlin Wall fell and unfroze the Communist clamp on the multiple ethnicities and tangled histories of each country in Eastern Europe, history has been reborn.

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Rarely is it as malleable as in a young nation like Slovakia, which is heavily Roman Catholic, was a Nazi puppet state in World War II and has been long in the shadow of a larger, neighboring Slavic rival — the Czechs.

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Add to that a general tendency across a unifying Europe — the European Union now numbers 27 states, and just under 500 million people — to emphasize regional, religious, linguistic and other badges of identity, and the Slovak bill easily stirs tempers among citizens more accustomed to settling disputes in a bar.

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ΩΩAll sorts of tribal groups and ethnic or religious sorts have taken heart from Zionism and apes Israel and wants what the Jews seem bent on getting: annihilating, mutilating, crushing, deporting and enslaving other ethnic or religious groups.  I am a secularist: the US exists as a huge nation thanks to NOT letting ANYONE impose their bigotry on all the rest of the people and when this DID happen such as to the African ethnic groups, this was viewed over time as a crime.

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ΩΩNow, we have the Israel model for Existing and it involves being intensely cruel and heartless to even babies if they are ‘the wrong sort’.  This is why Israel, far from being our best of buddies, is our worst enemy.  That is, if we end up imitating Zionists, we die.  Look at Czechoslovakia!  Like Yugoslavia, it is tearing its own throat out and if it continues to shatter, it will be smaller and smaller pieces and the hatred this will trigger will grow and grow and no matter how much they try to chop everything up along ‘ethnic’ or ‘religious’ lines, people will be dwelling on the wrong side of various nasty lines and will be maltreated or even murdered.

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India IT Hub Hyderabad Hit By New Religious Clashes – NYTimes.com

Two people have been killed and 110 people arrested in connection with the violence, which started Saturday when a Hindu group replaced Muslim flags with Hindu ones on the streets during a festival.

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The city, home to companies such as Microsoft, Google and Mahindra Satyam, has already been hit by months of sporadic unrest over the proposed creation of a separate Indian state, carved out of Andhra Pradesh.

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Police have extended a curfew to more parts of Hyderabad and have been ordered to shoot at troublemakers in curfew-bound areas. But areas which host big tech companies remain unaffected.

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ΩΩThis is why India won’t catch up with China.  Caste, race and religion riots abound.  These are not happening in distant quarters of the country: it is happening in the most advanced parts, the very heart of the system!  Shanghai isn’t seeing race or religious riots.

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Vatican Priest Likens Criticism Over Abuse to Anti-Semitism – NYTimes.com

A senior Vatican priest, speaking before Pope Benedict XVI at a Good Friday service, compared the world’s outrage at sexual abuse scandals in the Catholic Church to the persecution of the Jews, prompting angry responses from victims’ advocates and consternation from Jewish groups.


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ΩΩI was raped as a child.  Thank god, not by a religious leader!  But nonetheless, I hate people who beat and rape children, I hate them with a passion.  As for Ratzi the Nazi: he was hanging out just outside of Dachau when it was liberated by Americans.  Ahem.  As for the insanity of this whole thing: the CHILDREN raped by priests are the ‘Holocaust victims’ not Ratzi the Nazi and his twisted buddies.  I wish the Catholic Church had the same hari kari culture of the ancient Japanese.  Then the cardinals and the pope can meet in St. Peter’s and slit their bellies.

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ΩΩFinally, they will have an exorcism worthy of the name.

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The guru, the sex tape and an unholy row – Asia, World – The Independent

To his countless thousands of followers across India and around the world, Nithyananda Swami was nothing less than a true guru – a genuine holy man who could lead people to spiritual happiness. A message from the young leader posted on the website of his organisation, Dhyanapeetam, or Knowledge Centre, says: “Be blissful”.

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But then a video emerged that appeared to show the leader getting a little too blissful with two shapely south Indian women. His followers were furious and his ashram in the city of Bangalore was attacked by crowds angry that the guru’s pursuits appeared to include the carnal as well as the sacred.

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ΩΩHAHAHA.  A zillion religions are all about how gods hate various forms of sex.  I am kind of shocked how fixated gods are in this matter.  Makes me wonder.  I agree with the ancient people that all gods were sex fiends who had relations with anything and everything in sight.  And what is ‘spiritual happiness’?  Why does it always end up being tangled in illicit sex?  Is this why gods make sex illegal?  To titillate their own followers even more?  Murky business.  This is all very murky.

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22 Comments

Filed under .diplomacy, religion, war and peace

22 responses to “Religious Fanatics Make Diplomacy Impossible

  1. I have a feeling the Afgan war will be ending sooner than expected , there have been overtures of a deal with the taliban for awhile and with Karzai acting strange, i suspect they would all like the US out and things settled.

  2. Jimmy

    Thanks for pulling a column together for today even with your family medical emergencies, Elaine. I hope the medical issues are resolved successfully, as well they can be.

    Any comments about the hour long Hu/Obama phone call Thurs night? The delay of 10 minutes for Air Force One leaving Andrews strikes me as significant, implying a degree of tension, probably over Iran.

  3. melponeme_k

    The sex impulse is a powerful survival instinct that we barely understand and sometimes can’t control. That disturbs us.

    Religion seems to be one of the only constants our race can hold on to that keeps us in the here and now. And that is our mainstay for sanity, a poor one at that.

    Right now we are in the middle of a mania that rivals the inquisition and the witch hunts.

  4. larry, dfh

    Hope the medical scene works out well.

  5. Eso

    Someone once said that if there were no God, he would be invented. I think that that is what you are doing with “religion”, inventing it. I am both religious and a secularist, religious in the sense of Albert Schweitzer’s “reverence for life” and nature. I believe that human intelligence is as much the purpose of nature as a worm is.

    Religion is at the basis of community bonding, so is the barrel of a gun. In our days, it is the seculars who use the barrel of the gun–whether of Hitler, Stalin, Mao, or the U.S., or whoever. These seculars no longer have to pretend to be religious.

    If religion sometimes is perverted as in the case of the neo-Christian Catholic Church, it is of course more than regrettable. But then again it came to power by eliminating the arch-Christians, the itinerant preachers when Europe was still on the move and had no borders, say, about a thousand years ago. When people reached the Atlantic Ocean and could not walk across it (yet), their princes started securing land for themselves where
    ever the end of history of wandering left them off.

    It was the secular princes who founded neo-Christianity by putting their brothers and other relatives as heads of a religion that sent the itinerant Johns away to Heaven as smoke and ashes. Being “up there”, they
    could no longer cause trouble on Earth. This is the beginning when the word “love” became used in a purely rhetoral manner.

    Religion began with self-sacrifice of life, because it is only that kind of will that is able to bond a community and persuade that someone really believes in it and loves it. This often deteriorated to human sacrifice by others, who had no such strength of character, which then extended to war, which captured “enemy” warriors for the sole purpose of sacrificing them on the altar. Later on, especially in our times, the sacrificial riual threw off all pretenses and killed the victim at the edge of a hole he and she had to dig for themselves.

    I think that in an effort to replace outright human sacrifices there arose arch-Christians who were willing to return to self-sacrifice. As either a way of purifying themselves on the way to such sacrifice or even as its substitute, the Johns (the remnant of the itinerant sadhus of India resemble them) instituted sexual abstinence. It is worth reading up on the practices of the perfects, the high priests and priesteses, among the Cathars and other arch-Christian groups.

    Being a religion instituted by seculars, the neo-Christian Catholic Church (and its many “protestant” offshoots) made sexual abstinence a joke from the very beginning, but only the Catholics made of the joke an outright and disgusting lie.

    As this is Easter Sunday, I would like to remind everyone that not all of us believe in the chronology of history as it is presented by the West. Thus, one Basil (later used as the prototype for creating the Jesus character) was tossed into a huge fiery pit by a Byzantine king named Alexis I. Basil was a Bogomil or arch-Christian. Yes, he had twelve disciples.

  6. Billibaldi

    re:Ali Hussain Sibat

    I always though the death penalty was reserved for prognosticators that were accurate. Mr Sibat already had the bad taste to be Shia, did he predict the fall of the house of Saud?

  7. Gary

    Eso…You are partly right in your observations.

    I know some Quakers and some people in some of the old mainline churches in Seattle.

    They are what I would call “christians”—or more like, “just very decent people”. Myself, I grew up, like Elaine, in a fundamentalist branch that deeply perverted itself and have scars to prove that perversion–but probably not quite as bad as hers. I will no longer attend any church, even though there are a very few that have remained decent.

    I think the good “christians” rise above the literal interpretations of their doctrines and just listen to the good things that come out of that religion, ignoring the rest of the more primitive aspects. Most of the good “christians” also seem to feel the need for a secular govt and they also tend to support movements for some social justice—ie, single payer medical, anti war causes, and
    referees for capitalism.

    I do think ALL religions are basically crazed because all religions eventually, when they become large enough, become entwined with the power structure of the government.

    Then “original sin” takes over.

  8. Gary

    Eso…..

    The seculars did “have their day with the point of the gun” but now that role is going back to the age old situation of the “religious” institutions having the guns.

  9. Dibbles

    “Are we stuck in a time vector that keeps bringing us back to the Vietnam war over and over again?”

    I’ve always sensed resentment by right wingers toward uppity working class Americans and college students who forced an end to the military adventurism called Viet Nam War.

    Yes, when the Bush/Cheney regime grabbed the reigns of power I sensed pay-back time. I and others predicted more war and debt. It was a no-brainer to us given the history we’ve lived. Even war-profiteer Pappy Bush didn’t trust psychoDick.

  10. Dibbles

    “I wish the Catholic Church had the same hari kari culture of the ancient Japanese.”

    I wish they ALL did. It’s religious divisiveness and justification that seems to be at the root of so much hatred and murder. Religion – nothing more than a shared belief system – is used to justify greed and entitlement.

    Hopefully one day religious beliefs can return to healthy spiritual renewal and regeneration for all good people – in accordance with the scientifically provable and knowable natural world. And I do believe that all people on this planet are born inherently good – with the exception of those mental abberations born devoid of conscience. (There are clinical and legal identifications and remedies for those.)

    Eso @ 6:10am: I share your “reverence for life” and nature.

    Gary @ 3:39pm: I share in your appreciation of good Christians (as well as other practicing religious adherents.)

    Happy rebirth of life, after the first full moon, after the Spring Equinox also known as Easter!

    (Elaine, those bunnies love lots of sex too.)

  11. DeVaul

    So, Hamas, some kind of religious guerrilla group, is “speculating” in the currency markets, and this “upsets” Israel, who wants them all dead as part of the “Peace Process”.

    Holy Crap!

    Thousands of years of pure hell have emanated from this Land of Mordor and yet it still produces news that leaves one just unable to think at all.

  12. Joseppi

    “I wish the Catholic Church had the same hari kari culture of the ancient Japanese.”

    I wish they ALL did.”

    Watch what you wish for – Most religious fanatics believe that their rewards for belief are in the “hereafter” and only through death can they cash in their religious insurance policies.

    This collective religious belief in redemption through death (that’s the Easter message brothers and sisters) manifests in a potent Armageddon hallucination that could immolate us all.

    Instead of submitting to this planetary religious orgasm of death, I think it should be in our, and our children’s best interests to resist the seduction of mass suicide.

    Since the springtime Easter message is one of renewal – How about we all hold digital hands and take a deep breath….. and reaffirm that life renews through the ‘mystery of constant change’, and as human beings endowed with rational mental faculties it’s our mission to observe change – calibrate it’s causes, patterns and effects on human behavior.

    Empowered with the powers of deduction and logic and filtered through feelings of empathy and life affirming emotions – we all can now hope for a better life on earth. Amen.

  13. rutben

    “Thanks for pulling a column together for today even with your family medical emergencies, Elaine.” Likewise. Perfect time to offer a special thank you to Elaine and other bloggers we have come to rely upon for “unvarnished” truth seeking. While I find myself mostly overwhelmed by the sheer magnitude of “news” and trying to find even a modicum of sense from it, Elaine et al often leave me in awe with their diligence and perseverance. As Chris Hedges might say, the “illusion of spectacle” is the province of main stream media. The search for truth, even when it falls short of magnanimity, belongs to Elaine et al and for that, I am forever grateful. Thank you and Happy Easter.

  14. Dibbles

    Joseppi, I will gladly hold that digital hand of yours and likewise take a deep breath.

    The spiritually devoid death cults that some forms of religion have become can only be overcome by the infinite power of the human mind and heart to tenaciously live and manifest the goodness that is life. Thanks to the digital revolution, we have the power to collectively participate in humankind’s spiritual – and to some extent physical – nurturing.

    I’m ever thankful to Mother Nature and God in Heaven (the higher realm of our awareness and connectivity) for life’s continual renewal, especially at this time of year.

  15. the fool on the hill

    The only thing that ‘forced an end to the military adventurism called Viet Nam War’ was that the CIA/pentagon lost the war.

  16. TweedleDeeDumb

    Trouble, oh we got trouble,
    Right here in River City!
    With a capital “T”
    That rhymes with “P”
    And that stands for Pool,
    That stands for pool.
    We’ve surely got trouble!
    Right here in River City,
    Right here!
    Gotta figger out a way
    To keep the young ones moral after school!
    Trouble, trouble, trouble, trouble, trouble…

    —-

    Oh yeah..trouble yet to come…

    “And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of THY PEOPLE:

    and there shall be a time of TROUBLE, SUCH AS NEVER WAS since there was a nation [even] to that same time:

    and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. (Da 12:1)

    Yikes!

  17. emsnews

    We got trouble, big time: the San Andreas is playing hop scotch.

  18. emsnews

    I got a lot done today between dealing with family health problems. It didn’t rain for a week and so I was able to dismantle a 12 foot length of 8″ triple walled chimney and switch it with a 6″ triple walled chimney that I had scavenged.

    I then had to rebuild the inside part of the house where the chimney that was much smaller, had to go. And so I crawled into the attic and batted off spider webs and tore my elbow on a nail when my knee slipped (less than 3′ in space to work in!) and then my cat, Reido, came into the crawl space, too, and thought it would be fun to stick his head down the new hole my knee made…

    Lots of fun! This is something I thought would cost hundreds of dollars to do but I got to do it for free and nothing beats free!

    By the way, we have readers in the area where today’s quake happened. Let’s all pray to the fickle gods that no one was hurt!

  19. larry, dfh

    Free IS the best! Plus, you get to recylce the old one (stainless, I hope). I hate having to slide around on boards in a low attic. And if you’ve got a roof-seal to make it can be quite a pain. Hope you’re not hurt and the roof doesn’t leak.

  20. TweedleDeeDumb

    Wow!

    You got all that done?

    I’m impressed.

    (The aches and pains may hang around for awhile. Keep up some good nutrients for repair.*)
    🙂

    * I suspect the cat will do o.k. Be sure to delegate the cleanup to the 4 legged explorer. Reido seems to have had an injury-free day.
    😉

  21. Jim Dandy

    Emmanuel Labor

  22. nah

    world is a strange place gettin’ stranger
    .
    queda is up to its worldwide tricks… dont have to be osama to be a bumma
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    bombs at every 3rd world country in less than 20 days… tell me its just a ‘spring time offencive’ fact is theres alot of problems on the ground in asiaville
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    the religious hold a lot less power than you would think… never really had all that much to begin with…
    .
    really all the DR. Strangelove enemys of the law are what drive exceptionalist phycos anyways… no reason the power of religion should carry more than its historical importance
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    if im not mistaken asia has a long road on its hands
    .
    not so much for the ‘outlier crazys’ so much as the poverty and history
    .

    .
    and what state is that

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