Microsoft Threatens US With More Job Offshoring

Picture 3The World TRADE Center was the centerpiece of corporate/statist Americans seeking to get rich while opening the doors of the US to a flood of imports.  Offshoring of finance as well as jobs, evading taxes while at war: the NYT has yet another editorial, supporting free trade and loudly screaming for the US to not even consider, any form of ‘Buy American’ or any protections of any sort.

 

THE GATE OF HEAVENLY PEACE:The Goddess of Democracy  http://www.tsquare.tv/film/gateExcerpts.php#5

THE GATE OF HEAVENLY PEACE:The Goddess of Democracy http://www.tsquare.tv/film/gateExcerpts.php#5

The same paper that hires and promotes reporters who are scoundrels who lie on mortgage applications and are dead beats, is the same paper that wants the US to run forever, in the red, at every level.  The owners of the NYT are going bankrupt. They lost 90% of their wealth.  Flat Earth Friedman’s wife is bankrupt and has lost 100% of her own fortune, too.  I hope the Mexican who has the entire NYT family by the throat, forces them out and then, maybe we can deport them for being Unamerican creeps.

 

 

Editorial – The Peril of ‘Buy American’ – NYTimes.com

In the absence of leadership from the president, the temptation to turn to protectionism is growing. Yes, how dare we protect America.  Hundreds of municipalities and some state legislatures have signed on to a “Buy American” resolution pushed by the United Steelworkers union. And the House of Representatives stuck provisions requiring the use of American materials into bills about water quality improvement and new school facilities.

Meanwhile, representatives of Australia, Brazil, Canada, the European Union, Japan and Mexico have been consulting about how to respond to the United States’ protectionist drive.  These are our allies who have grown accustomed to running continuous trade surpluses with the US for the last 40+ years.  After Canadian companies were barred from bidding for American business, news reports say that some 12 Canadian cities passed ordinances against buying American. And the Federation of Canadian Municipalities is expected to discuss a possible coordinated response at its meeting this month….

An analysis this year by Jeffrey Schott and Gary Clyde Hufbauer of the Peterson Institute for International Economics in Washington estimated that “Buy American” provisions could “save” 9,000 American jobs — a tiny number compared with the 650,000 jobs supported by foreign government procurement of American exports.

This sort of faux facts is typical of the traitor who wrote this editorial.  Not even a million Americans make a living, working for export industries.  Out of 100 million workers!  Yet, we are to sacrifice our nation’s future existence so this handful of workers can work?  Eh?  What are their jobs, anyway?

Want to bet, it is mostly in commodity sectors?  And if we don’t sell all our raw materials, etc, to foreigners, we can use them, here!  Novel idea, eh?

Indeed, whether it is from the point of view of diplomacy or of job creation, “Buy American” is a terrible idea. One that could make the global recession worse.

 

Only a paper as treasonous and clueless as the NYT could end a hysterical editorial with such words.  So what, if the global recession is worse?  If fixing it means slitting our own throat, NO THANK YOU.  We have to find a system which works while not bankrupting the US!  Duh.  How simple is this concept?

 

Bernanke Warns Deficits Threaten Financial Stability (Update4) – Bloomberg.com

 

— Federal Reserve Chairman Ben S. Bernanke said large U.S. budget deficits threaten financial stability and the government can’t continue indefinitely to borrow at the current rate to finance the shortfall.

“Unless we demonstrate a strong commitment to fiscal sustainability in the longer term, we will have neither financial stability nor healthy economic growth,” Bernanke said in testimony to lawmakers today. “Maintaining the confidence of the financial markets requires that we, as a nation, begin planning now for the restoration of fiscal balance.”…

“In recent weeks, yields on longer-term Treasury securities and fixed-rate mortgages have risen,” Bernanke said. “These increases appear to reflect concerns about large federal deficits but also other causes, including greater optimism about the economic outlook, a reversal of flight-to-quality flows and technical factors related to the hedging of mortgage holdings.”

 

Looks like Hu called Bernanke and chewed him out.  Of course, the NYT, Bernanke, Pelosi [whose husband gets money from the military industrial complex], Geithner and the others who trekked to China on the anniversary of the crushing of the Tiananmen Square students, all are telling us, we can’t spend money.  Not one of these clowns suggest we cut the immense three quarter trillion dollar Pentagon budget by even a penny.

 

GM, Chrysler Wrong to Shut Dealers, Lawmakers Say (Update3) – Bloomberg.com

 

General Motors Corp. and Chrysler LLC were “just plain wrong” to take taxpayer funds and leave local dealers and their customers to fend for themselves, Senator Jay Rockefeller said as lawmakers faulted the automakers today.

Rockefeller, leading a hearing on dealership closings, said Chrysler is eliminating 40 percent of its retailers in his state of West Virginia, and GM is cutting more than 30 percent. “Chrysler gave its dealers less than one month’s notice prior to termination, which is truly unbelievable,” he said.

 

Welcome to the mean and lean US.  We get no warning while these owners, for example, who are nearly all LOCAL and hire in the COMMUNITY, are being ruthlessly eliminated.  They can’t even sell their autos in another month?  WOW.  Talk about insane. We bailed out the gnomes, pirates and hell hounds with no say in how AIG spent its money but we allow this to happen?

 

100,000+ jobs are vanishing this month!  And on top of the quarter to half a million jobs being destroyed every month?  WOW.  This is 100,000 mortgages that will now go belly-up.  And many families unable to have Xmas this year, they won’t be buying any Chinese toys!  Once upon a time, the US used to make toys, by the way.  We are effing INSANE.  This destruction of one of our major industries is a crime.  And the news media egged the public into slitting our own throats so we can be beholden to Asia for all our transports?

 

U.S. Inquiry Into Hiring at High-Tech Companies – NYTimes.com

The investigation targets some of Silicon Valley’s best known companies, including GoogleYahooApple and several others, these people said….

Antitrust suits against companies for restraining the movement of skilled employees are by no means unprecedented.

In 2001, for example, in a federal appeals court decision written by Judge Sonia Sotomayor, the Supreme Court nominee, the court upheld a complaint by a group of oil geologists and petroleum engineers who sued Exxon and other oil companies for colluding in hiring decisions and thus suppressed wages.

“If there is a naked agreement by companies in an industry not to hire each others’ employees or an agreement to fix wages, that would be an antitrust violation,” said Herbert Hovenkamp, an antitrust expert at the University of Iowa College of Law.

 

The computer industry is ground zero in the destruction of US industry, jobs and everything.  They flooded the market with foreign labor and then offshored jobs like mad.  Now, we find out, they were in collusion against the work force.  Arrest them all.  Now, on to Microsoft, an Evil Empire:

 

Ballmer Says Tax Would Move Microsoft Jobs Offshore (Update3) – Bloomberg.com

 

 Microsoft Corp.Chief Executive Officer Steven Ballmersaid the world’s largest software company would move some employees offshore if Congress enacts President Barack Obama’s plans to impose higher taxes on U.S. companies’ foreign profits.

Someone should grab this traitor and yell at him, ‘Don’t you know, we are AT WAR!’  Instead, he gets all huffy and nasty and THREATENS US ALL with removal of jobs…jobs which he is offshoring, anyway!

“It makes U.S. jobs more expensive,” Ballmer said in an interview. “We’re better off taking lots of people and moving them out of the U.S. as opposed to keeping them inside the U.S.”

Sounds like a Mafia boss.

Obama on May 4 proposed outlawing or restricting about $190 billion in tax breaks for offshore companies over the next decade. Such business groups as the National Foreign Trade Council, the U.S. Chamber of Commerce and the Business Roundtable have denounced the proposed overhaul.

This is a big collection of traitors who think, we shouldn’t pay taxes for our wars.  See how easy it is? When we are at war, we must confiscate all the wealth of people evading taxes.  Especially, if they threaten to destroy us by removing jobs and then  importing the goods or labor, thus, destroying our economy, on top of not paying taxes!

U.S. tax rules let companies defer paying corporate rates as high as 35 percent on most types of foreign profits as long as that money remains invested overseas. Obama says he wants to end such incentives to keep foreign profits tax-deferred so that companies would invest them in the U.S.

Microsoft reported an overall effective tax rate of 26 percent for 2008 in its last annual report. “Our effective tax rates are less than the statutory tax rate due to foreign earnings taxed at lower rates,” the report said.

 

See how they think?  Many people think the government is the monster.  No, it is not.  It is controlled by Ballmer and all the other brats who are threatening us if we demand they pay taxes and fair wages.  Arrest them all and nationalize their businesses until they figure out, this is a very bad thing to do and quite naughty.  

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85 Comments

Filed under .money matters, Free Trade

85 responses to “Microsoft Threatens US With More Job Offshoring

  1. Trailin' Pete

    Not following the logic here. The management’s responsibility is to it’s shareholders. This mope is just responding to the labyrinth of crazy tax laws set up by the USG.

    Plenty of blame for all.

  2. payAttention

    You keep writing about current events, yet remain naive. Queen Pelosi and her PAC have been getting contributions from Farallon Capital, SF, for twenty years. They also manage her money. Wonder what sort of returns her funds achieve. Farallon is a large minority investor with Indiabulls in consumer finance in India since 2005. If you think they are little fry, Harry Reid pays them visits. So if we had a race between the House and the Senate to not regulate computer services offshoring, who finishes first? Talk about having your bases covered. President Obama also raised 7.8 million in one San Francisco sitting, with eBay founder Steve Westy and investor Kamil Hasan in attendance. As was every Siicon Valley entrepreneur from India and Pak. The President remarked how well they can get along. As well as representatives of Farallon.
    ΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩ
    ELAINE: I guess I don’t harp enough on the obvious conflicts of interest of our corrupt Congress? 🙂 Thanks for doing it for me.

  3. Simon

    Here is the current problem with Microsoft as I see it.
    They only want experienced coders, or train graduates at a massive discount, plus the very stringent selection bias for being number one, of course.
    Where does the discount come from: yes, graduates from India and China
    We are getting a catch-22 problem where Microsoft won’t help to hire US graduates because it costs too much during the ramp up phase and the graduates not getting the industry experience to get a real technical job. Geek squad notwithstanding.
    Of course Microsoft wins at the end since it can just headhunt overseas. But the citizens can’t, at least not easily

  4. Paul S

    It’s time to VOID the patent and copyright laws. Billy Gates wants to offshore, let’s “offshore” his patent/copyright protections. Let’s tell companies based in China, Indonesia, Viet Nam and elsewhere that they can make copies of ALL MS programs, without any legal consequences–and sell them here in the US of A. Land of the true free market. Let’s ram some free market competition down Bill Gates’ throat. See how well he likes it. This of course won’t happen. Microsoft spends ALOT of money on lobbyists to keep their monopoly. Still, it’s time to tear these obstacles to TRUE free market capitalism down.

  5. seraphim

    Buy American. Wouldn’t that be a return to American isolationism, for which a large , very large, part of the world would be eternally grateful?

  6. Simon

    It will severely hinder our specialization in making arms and wage war across the globe

  7. payAttention

    I have also tried to alert you to the TARP recipients using your taxes to bid up oil. JPM has bought a new double hull supertanker to and filled it with 273,000 tons of heating oil, aka diesel. Perhaps you could demand that our Navy privateer it. What a waste, but distillate can’t be stored in old tankers.

    http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601110&sid=aYqgZUNoD7Tw
    ΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩ
    ELAINE: Yes, the article about this is coming up in a short while. I already have it set up. Gads. Those damn crooks.

  8. seraphim

    Simon, that is precisely what the world would be grateful for!

  9. criticalcontrarian

    @Paul S: Amen to that. It’s always pick and choose for these parasites, isn’t it? That and taking without giving anything back.

    @seraphim: that’s what Simon meant, and hell yeah!

  10. petronorway

    Free trade is wonderful isn’t it. Our competition with non-unionized police states has undermined our unionized democratic states. Of course some [the US] are further along this path than others. Bring back the tariffs…..

  11. Simon

    What sort of unionized nation import foreign labor and tax them without representation as well as putting ridiculous amount of hoop before allowing them to become citizens?

  12. petronorway

    Yes, you are correct Simon you could make the case that the US is now a non-unionized police state. It wasn’t always this way though…

  13. emsnews

    ‘Non-unionized police state’ is called a ‘banana republic’ and the US has a LOOONG history of imposing this on South and Central America.

  14. Simon

    yeah, whenever a promising USCA politician show up we imprison him, or kill him, or both
    🙂
    This is to keep the rent low

  15. JSmith

    “Not following the logic here. The management’s responsibility is to it’s shareholders. ”

    Yep.

    Elaine seems to have this idea that once a company gets large enough, the jobs it creates are public property and it loses the right to do what it deems to be in the best interests of the company.

    This is a novel legal theory, to say the least.

    And of you don’t like MS, you don’t have to use its stuff. Go with Open Office if you feel that strongly about it.

    “It’s time to VOID the patent and copyright laws. Let’s tell companies based in China, Indonesia, Viet Nam and elsewhere that they can make copies of ALL MS programs, without any legal consequences–and sell them here in the US of A.”

    There’s a lot of open-source stuf you can already have for free, but I’m getting the idea that it’s just more fun to bitch about MicroSoft.
    ΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩ
    ELAINE: Smith, if you recall the past, you might remember that I have been boycotting Microsoft for many years going all the way back to when we first met, long, long ago. DUH.

  16. JSmith

    “U.S. tax rules let companies defer paying corporate rates as high as 35 percent on most types of foreign profits as long as that money remains invested overseas. Obama says he wants to end such incentives to keep foreign profits tax-deferred so that companies would invest them in the U.S.”

    Hahaha.

    <a href=http://www.realclearmarkets.com/articles/2009/05/assessing_the_overseas_tax_dod.htmlMost countries don’t tax the foreign profits of their multinational firms at all. Take a Swiss multinational with operations in South Korea. It pays a 27.5 percent Korean corporate tax on its profits and can bring home the rest tax-free. By contrast, a U.S. firm in Korea pays the Korean tax and, if it returns the profits to the United States, faces the 35 percent U.S. corporate tax rate.”

    So the plan would be to tax profits made in, e.g, Korea at 35%, after the 27.5% Korean tax, for a grand total of 62.5%.

    That will certainly stimulate investment in the US! If I ran GE, I might consider leaving the US altogether and setting up shop in someplace sane, like France.

  17. JSmith

    Crap… Here’s the non-broken link to the <a href=http://www.realclearmarkets.com/articles/2009/05/assessing_the_overseas_tax_dod.html article cited above.

  18. JSmith

    Jesus… what’s wrong with the damn link?

    Try
    this one.

  19. Simon

    This is not your typical rant about Microsoft making crap Windows and Office and open-source softwarer.
    This is about the jobs, you know, as in
    “Dey took away our jobs ” type of jobs
    And not Steve Jobs

  20. JSmith

    OK… that’s better – is there any way to get WordPress to allow previews and/or editing for comments?

  21. openly hidden

    elaine said: “…And the news media egged the public into slitting our own throats so we can be beholden to Asia for all our transports?”
    ========================
    the most famous tractor manufacturer in the world uses Chinese ball bearings now. so what happens if usa wants to manufacture equipment and machinery that china doesn’t approve? ball bearings are in everything. and did i read somewhere that japan or china now does the electronic systems that goes into our most sophisticated newest machinery? why is the usa deliberately becoming so dependent on the kindness of strangers? and a few sociopath banksters and gangster corporations rule us and have veto power? meanwhile, everything i have to buy is of lesser quality and costs more. i know usa grows half the worlds agriculture production. corn and soybeans are continuously exported overseas. stop that, and they could be used right here to manufacture all sorts of now imported stuff….like oil! imho, make the world feed itself, bring all our armies home from around the world, become self-sufficient in all ways, develop and perfect domestic energy systems improve technology for coal and wind and bio-mass and nuclear and solar and close down the fed and replace with united states of america national and state banks. (iowa has lots of windmills generating electric energy right now. so many, iowa is having lawsuits about exporting power now. second behind texas) most problems solved. become the true hermit kingdom. most problems solved. and then arrest and punish the guilty. most problems solved. and i still think “money” basically is an egoistic thing now. hermit kingdom our new money too. hermit up. hermit up. banking is not that complicated fmha used to do it well for agriculture before ideology from the regan revolution times swept it all away.

  22. openly hidden

    the best gravy i have ever tasted is made from soybeans! it is a byproduct from biodiesel! hahahahha! corm and soybeans basically is an industrial product now. use them instead of petroleum. if you don’t like corn syrup, develop something else. but i got to admit, i don’t think you can find an honest word about most subjects now the world has become such a liar. hermit up!

  23. RobG

    JSmith wrote: Elaine seems to have this idea that once a company gets large enough, the jobs it creates are public property and it loses the right to do what it deems to be in the best interests of the company. This is a novel legal theory, to say the least.

    Actually in the beginning of the U.S., companies were issued charters that had to be renewed annually. Corporations were not given legal status as ‘persons’, being able to sue others. If it was ‘too big to fail’, anti-trust/monopoly laws were created to break up companies like AT&T. And unions protected workers from being crushed.

    So, yes, Elaine’s view that large companies should exist for the public good is spot on. That’s far better than letting the CEO loot the profits for millions every year. And if the company supplies essential services, then there is a different standard. For example, some unions can’t go on strike (police and air lines).

  24. JSmith

    “become the true hermit kingdom. most problems solved.”

    Not a place I think I’d want to live. Why don’t you try it on a small scale first, in, say, Idaho or Montana, and let us know how it works out?

  25. JSmith

    “So, yes, Elaine’s view that large companies should exist for the public good is spot on.”

    Then the government should provide the operating capital and decide what products are made and the prices those products are sold for.

  26. Gary

    Its simply amazing how many “free” marketeers
    cannot make the connection between collapsing
    real estate/banks and collapsing American
    middle class employment.
    …….
    I should re-phrase the above. Change “cannot”
    to “will not”
    ……
    Oh, pass the credit please, thank you

  27. Simon

    Back on topic…
    The statue, she look so poignant, so …so like Liberty herself
    Next time you know they’ll use the name Freedom
    Because we have Freedom. Yeah. Lots of it too.
    And not afraid to use it.

  28. emsnews

    Smith, do you read ANY news? Um, exactly who is capitalizing many of our industries [aside from the obvious ones in the military/industrial complex]?

    Rob G: excellent. Thanks.

    Openly Hidden: we can run on soy sauce we get for free from Chinese diners! And use the chopsticks to poke out the eyes of anyone who bothers us, too.

    And if you prefer Russian fuel, run off of vodka. Or just get drunk, eat a Chinese dinner and then pass out in the alley. 🙂

  29. JSmith

    ““So, yes, Elaine’s view that large companies should exist for the public good is spot on.”

    Which raises an interesting question: at excatly what point does a private business stop being private, and become a “public good”?

    Becuase just short of that point is where you want to stop growing the company. That way you don’t get the howls of anguish every time you try to increase your ROI.

  30. openly hidden

    in fact now that i think about it….just about all problems in the world come from disputes about money and religion. and a better way to look at these is EGO’S. here is the truth….both money and religion only are a sort of reflection of reality, yet look at the misery they cause all the time everywhere. fucking walking talking egos lead to plastic tits and great big lips that ought to tell you something right there. ego is full of shit all the time as it re-defines “reality” to suit its egoistic purposes.

  31. openly hidden

    rancid egos even defines what is “science”. huge puffy unstable egos wanting more. plastic tits and great big lips….what is this if not the true definition of the banksters world. egos exist to be manipulated. i hate egos. stoik now. i have real work to do rather than manipulate flacid egos feeling large. egos.

  32. JSmith

    “Um, exactly who is capitalizing many of our industries [aside from the obvious ones in the military/industrial complex]?”

    The profitable ones? Or the ones that are just barely limping along?

    Microsoft, Oracle, Pfizer, Merck, Verizon, etc. are hugely profitable.

    GM, Ford, Citibank, etc.are hugely non-profitable.

    You tell me what the difference is.

  33. openly hidden

    fucking egos aren’t even real. they are MANUFACTURED. and they rule us. they created an entire world that exists to feed them. plastic tits and great big lips are perhaps egos greatest contributions. and you all think you really just are your EGOS! hahahahhahahahaha! tell me about it.

  34. JSmith

    “large companies should exist for the public good”

    In fact the more I think about that, the funnier it is.

    In the late 70s, when Microsoft was six geeks making BASIC interpreters for Altair microcomputers, no one cared.

    Ten years later they have a contract with IBM, and We The People show up and say, “Nice little operation you got there. Sure looks like a Public Good to us.”

    I’m not going to call you “We The People”. I’m going to call you “Rocco”.

  35. emsnews

    Gates worked damn hard to turn it into a monopoly.

  36. Simon

    Well now we have google which is quasi-fed I guess
    Provide a competition for MS if the market can’t be bothered to provide one.

  37. JSmith

    OK… let me ask you a few more questions. (Don’t worry; I’ll answer them for you too.)

    Do you like your PCs? Do you like surfing the ‘net, reading Elaine’s posts, and telling her how astute she is?

    (We sure do!)

    While you’re doing so, do you give a passing moment’s thought to the millions of jobs lost in the late 80s and 90s, and the companies that went bust (Digital) or nearly so (IBM) because microcomputers were so much simpler and cheaper than mainframes?

    (Of course not. Don’t be silly.)

    Your outrage is highly selective, isn’t it?

    (Why, yes, now that you mention it, we do believe it is.)

  38. Gary

    I have Apple. Far superior to PC’s
    …..
    Industries come and go.They wink in and out of business. But what used to
    happen is that the new jobs were always HERE
    and not in commie and bananah laybah kamps.
    ….
    JS….You simply WILL not make the connection between your failing real-estate and failing banks and the offshoring of middle class jobs.

  39. emsnews

    Correct, Gary!

    One US industry would displace an older US industry. Hard for some people to figure out. 🙂

  40. Too funny. This whole converstaion. Too funny.

    Ha.ha.ha —-

    literally.

    Still, I think debate is better than TV and I think I tried to prove it.

    The internet is 2-way by definition into a collective group. Ain’t it?

    Peace,
    Ken

    stoic is spelled with a “c” —- 🙂

  41. TV is orchestrated and produced even when live. TV is BS. Duh.

    Still, if you know BS when you sense it, them sometimes it is funny!

    ha

  42. Oh, I must say one last thing for the sake of posterity. I’ve put out my views on “billy bad ass”. I think he is nothing but a spider. I see his web.

    But all of that ain’t nothing but my opinion on the internet.

    Free!

    Still, I think I post awhile ago some of my gripes and I’m almost positive I wasn’t alone. In fact, mine were in response to others.

    The internet is the place to learn as long as we “save it” somewhere for the sake of posterity!

    Peace,
    ken

  43. the brain is great storage device and can save much, but the brain needs more than just data…..perception is part of the brain.

    In my opinion, perception is the 5th dimension. Literally per my “mathamatical” “geometric” sensibilities.

    Born-again christians seems to me to be just like openly hidden….and prosletyzers (sorry about the spelling there) drive me crazy!

  44. JSmith

    “I have Apple. Far superior to PC’s”

    Apple manufactures a form of “personal computer”, known generically as PCs.

    (Ask Mr. Jobs where his stuff is manufactured. Chances are, it ain’t in Cupertino.)

  45. hey by the way, JSmith your stuff was the funniest?

    By the way, I meant what I said along time ago in response to your most astute question.

    Thanks.

    Peace,
    Ken

  46. sorry, didn’t mean to have that first question mark…..fruedian typos —– aren’t they hogshit?

    Regardless, I pray for Peace.

  47. and enough of the sappiness……pray away is what I think, but don’t expect anything to come of it…to whom do you think you are praying seems a sensible question to me!

    :mrgreen:

    And, billy bad ass needs to settle down and put his assets to good use while there is still time….just my opinion on billy bad ass.

  48. Gary

    JS….You simply WILL not make the connection between your failing real-estate and failing banks and the offshoring of middle class jobs.
    …..
    I know that Apple aint made here in your “inefficient” US. I wasn’t born yesterday.
    ….
    But yourself, you are “born again” everyday as you profess your faith in the Jesus of the “free”
    market (laugh track).
    ….
    You should form a storefront church. Lots of empty bldgs everywhere to accomodate you.
    …..
    You could have a scolding choir in your loft for
    any parishoner that reads his scriptures outside of your translations.

  49. Paul S

    “Not following the logic here. The management’s responsibility is to it’s shareholders. ”/// Ah yes. And supply side econmics are a proven success also. HAHAHAHA. It’s true that a company’s main concern should be to its shareholders. That does NOT mean the government shoud play ANY role in a private company’s viability/profits. But government DOES intervene in markets. Drug companies get R&D subsidies, oil companies get subsidies, WalMart gets subsidies, etc. so spare us all this tripe about “free” markets. Even free marketers don’t want REAL free markets. Why do you think the Chamber of Commerce spends so much money on lobbyists, because they want democracy in its purest form? Now let’s talk about the another ‘shareholder’ out there, the American taxpayer. The taxpayer has EVERY bit as much right to promote ITS best interests as the for profit corporations do. It’s funny how “free” marketers think the “free” market is a one-way street. As far as outsouring/offshoring goes, anyone with a brain knows that offshoring/outsourcing is a “trump” card companies are already playing to the max; that threat is already in play. The main thing that keeps most companies from offshoring more is a selfish one: if they offshore enough jobs, public sentiment will be so strongly against them that even all the bribes corporations pay to Congress and the Executive branch won’t protect them from the wrath of the American taxpayer. (If the taxpayer can stop watching “American Idol” long enough, that is.) If that happens, voiding the patent/copyright laws will become a REAL possibility. (I promote that already, but I am a true Free marketer–HAHA.) The point is, once the jobs are gone, corporate leverage is gone as well–no more trump cards to play. Then the taxpayer will get his/her shot to even it up: tariffs, raising minimum wage laws, anti-trust laws,etc. Spare me the tripe about how raising the minimum wage kills jobs. The US had a crappy economy AND no raise in the minimum wage for 9 years. Thank our corrupt politicians for that. But things can change.

  50. emsnews

    Maybe we should launch a TV show called ‘American Idiot.’ 🙂

  51. Nope – I don’t want to get involved in that theatrical TV BS.

    JSmith has some worthwhile views in my opinion. As does Gary and CEO-Nut-cracking cracker-jack. Plus, of course Paul S. (got the facts) is the one who I would choose for my defense!

    Ha. ha…..i try not to forget!

    Peace,
    ken

  52. Hey – Heart’s and Bone’s playing just now…..music. I love it.
    :
    Go Mulchers!

  53. Trailin' Pete

    Paul…you propose to justify one mistake with another? The foundation of free enterprise is to allow the operation of private businesses to maximize their stockholder’s return on investments. The role of government is to strike a balance between this right and the social needs of a society. I don’t think any reasonable person would argue that the problem with government today is an unbelievable amount of corruption, greed and outright fraud. The solutions proposed seem to accept this reality and extract more and more fees to pay for these costs, as well as the true legitimate costs to operate a society, such as DEFENSE (not foreign interventions) and infrastructure.

    Microsoft shouldn’t have to run around the world to hide their profits. What the hell is wrong with generating a profit? Personally, $350 for a suite of Microsoft software seems to me to be the bargain of the century. Literally billions of hours of development and toil went into a product that operates remarkably well with an almost infinite array of hardware and software configurations. Very good value for the money.

    Many of the viewpoints on this site are lucid and well thought out, but the underlying bias towards socializing the free enterprise system to pay for the sins of a people who cannot control their elected representatives is absurd on its face.

  54. Trailin’ Pete…

    what century are you talking about?

    MS ain’t no deal. Other than a deal that has many strings.

    Who needs as such.

    Not me!

  55. Paul S

    Govermnet’s role should be to promote fairness. It should operate under the assumption that unregulated free markets lead to monopolies or semi-monopolies: the airline industry starting in the 80’s, the oil companies in the 90’s and now the monopolization of the financial sector today as examples. And one can go further back to the Standard Oil monopoly under Rockefeller–or the railroad barons. Government should be the balancing agent; the obstacle to big, influential companies profiteering at the ordinary citizens expense. Government should be big enough and powerful enough to stop, for example the HMO’s from backdating their stock options (which by the way HMO’s HAVE been caught doing). Profits, at ANY level, are fine, great, so long as they are honestly gained. But profiteering is NOT profit. Witness the 100’s of millions of dollars Microsoft has paid in Europe for violating European anti-trust laws. Then there are examples such as Enron and WorldComm. Absolutely NO company should be allowed to destroy its employee retirement accounts, but that’s what happened. Oh well, for the little guy, it’s always tough love in the “free” market.
    ΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩ
    ELAINE: Paul, my father was one of the first users of Univac at the University of Chicago because he was part of the nuclear bomb program and then got the machines for astronomical calculations when he was head of the Astronomy Department.

    I grew up working for or with or around some of the first innovators with computers. I even used to make prototypes for Texas Instruments and worked in a research lab. Well, old Bill used to attack and steal or overwhelm anyone who invented, discovered or figured out any system! The ONLY recourse was to take him to court. This is why I hate him. He is no hero.

  56. Z

    I remember bill gates in the very late 90s practically in tears in front of the house or the senate … one of those groups of whores … in a hearing about h1-b visa limits. gates was whining that he couldn’t be competitive if we didn’t continue to allow … and raise the amount of … foreigners coming into this country in a form of indentured servitude to take u.s. technology jobs. Here he is, the scumbag traitor, damn near the richest man in the world with a virtual monopoly crying about not being able to be COMPETITIVE unless he could screw the Amerian worker more. And this while … even back then … there were many, many unemployed software engineers in the u.s.

    It’s funny how these fascist punks are all about supply and demand and letting the market work itself out when it benefits them, but then want to change the rules against us when it should be benefiting us. If there truly was a shortage of high tech workers in this country … there was and is not … then that imbalance should have been corrected by supply and demand working itself out in the work market. Then an intelligent high school student may have looked at potential career paths and weighed making $80K or $90K, back then, with a four year degree and compare that with going to law school and putting in an additional 3 years of school to make slightly more annually and opted instead to become an engineer. That would have corrected the situation. Instead, we had our brightest funneled into the unethical world of wall street where they had the best chance to find work and make the most money inventing ways of pilfering off the public instead of inventing and producing stuff and contributing to societal good rather than facilitate the destruction of our economy.

    So, I hate bill gates … I can’t stand his hypocrisy of whining that we don’t have enough high school students interested in technology while the greedy, vicious bastard helped create the shortage. F’ him and his charity programs that he funds by screwing the american worker which allows him to play act like he is god in determining who should receive his “generosity”.

    Z

  57. Trailin' Pete

    Paul, the idea of government promoting “fairness” is extremely vague and unrealistic. Ask 100 people what is fair and you will get 100 different answers. Microsoft being able to buy influence relates back to the fundamental corruption in governments…the very ones you think should be the arbiters in the first place.
    Of course companies shouldn’t go unpunished for criminal acts, such as taking ERISA funds…nor should the government be allowed to arbitrarily bypass bondholders rights as they just did with Chrysler and GM…under the very guise of “fairness” and “shared sacrifice” which you advocate. The people that invested in these bonds were paid a yield in line with the risk, but yet the government decided that it wasn’t “fair”
    Under a free market system, as businesses grow and become more profitable, others will enter and everything self regulates. Of course when airlines and oil companies can buy government intervention and limit new entrants into a market, monopolies ensue. But it still gets back to the fundamental issue of corruption, not the workings of free markets.

  58. Trailin' Pete

    Hey Buffalo, I’m in the same century as you. I use MS products every day and they work great. I send and receive e-mails, presentations and documents to and from around the world and they open, correct spelling, save and organize and all measured in milliseconds.

    For what, $300? $500? The price of a good meal in NYC, without the risk of e-coli.

    You can object to the politics or personality of Microsoft, but make a case that their products aren’t one of the great values in the world today

  59. the fool on the hill

    The whole premise of the ‘market’ is backwards:

    A COMPANY’S STOCK PRICE MUST BE DETERMINED BY ITS VALUE, NOT THE OTHER WAY AROUND (same goes for nations, BTW).

    This underscores the basic flaw that facilitates all of the exploitation the gets all the systems out of balance and pisses Libra off!

    How do you determine value? Well, frankly, that’s not my problem so I am not going to invest a lot of effort working trying to convince anyone as to the correctness of my views. But I can offer a clue:

    It has to do with people performing honest labor in good faith. So, a nation of people hoping to live on ‘market profits’, which in many cases is really just the proceeds of piracy and looting, is not going to cut it.

    But don’t listen to me, I am an unperson. Pay attention to Harvard and Yale trained professionals. All the better if they have a Nobel Prize. Heh.

  60. norcalkid

    The workers should own the means of production *grin*. I will not give M$ a cent. Linux and Open Source Software are the way to go. Oh, and one can continue to use their older computers with Linux, thus cutting down on the waste stream.

  61. emsnews

    I have boycotted Microsoft since, since…at least 1982. I despise interlocking monopolies and cartels and Microsoft is a huge example of this sort of monstrosity. This is why these guys bribe Congress: to allow them to operate like pirates. They literally bash into the ground, any potential competitor.

    The reason Apple thrived is due to a huge number of people like myself who decided we didn’t want anything associated with Microsoft. Then, the free programming came into view and we had all this outside sourcing going on but this was due to a huge number of computer users resenting Microsoft’s cruddy systems which are designed to be difficult and annoying.

    Once, I had a friend mock me for buying Apple computers. Then, he visited me for a weekend, used my computer and then went home and ditched his Microsoft one.

    It is the INTERFACE that was so wonderful. As an artist, it is life and death.

  62. emsnews

    Norcalkid, you are right, to cover all their bases in the programming/legal side, the Microsoft software eats up a lot of computer power. Linux is clean, mean and streamlined which means, fast and keeps the older machines going and going and going. 🙂

  63. Simon

    Remember typewriters? well, PCs now can cost as little as $200, and MS Word cost that much, so you should be grateful that MS charged you twice 🙂

  64. Simon,

    The timing seems good to me.

    🙂

  65. nah

    like seriously… ok… who is going to pay for the political/economic reality in the US…. o’ poor people and hopefully broke overextended poorer people… what a joke… i would normally agree with what do taxes have to do with anything… except there is such a push for AT LEAST a well grounded socialist system…
    .
    unfortunately for guys like balmer its not microsofts problem that america can hardly aford to keep thair pithy company… we gave them the sons and daughters of americas ideas… and they give us back a political duopoly of ignorance
    .
    http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-181259944046452879&q=iluminati&total=111&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=4
    .
    steve balmers great falling out

  66. kenogami

    Elaqine wrote:

    I grew up working for or with or around some of the first innovators with computers. I even used to make prototypes for Texas Instruments and worked in a research lab. Well, old Bill (Gates) used to attack and steal or overwhelm anyone who invented, discovered or figured out any system! The ONLY recourse was to take him to court. This is why I hate him. He is no hero.”
    ==========
    No Elaine, you cannot even sue him even if he stole your ideas, your software, … For that you would need a few $100 millions for lawyers. I also bought an iMac last year; it is a little jewel and beautiful design.

  67. Paul S

    Buffalo_Ken: I stand ready to defend you in a court of law–or anywhere else for that matter.////Trailin’ Pete: when you can tell me where or how one can separate corruption and free markets, let me know. Myth #1 about “Free” marketers: they love competition. In reality, “free” marketers HATE competition; it cuts into profits. Yes, politicians are a prime factor in our current messes. But they wouldn’t yield such power IF the Big Money folks didn’t walk hand in hand with them. It’s a which came first argument: the chicken or the egg? The right wingers attack big government because they KNOW that only the government can curb the natural (dishonest) behaviors humans–and big corporations– are prone to. And of course ‘fairness’ is a vague term; it doesn’t mean it isn’t a worthy goal. Juries find defendants not guilty all the time. It doesn’t mean the system doesn’t work. In fact, you could argue this is a sign that the system DOES work. Nobody can perfectly define fairness. That’s why we have courts, it’s why we have elections. I have no problem with that kind of vagueness. A democracy is a living and breathing thing.

  68. JSmith

    “The reason Apple thrived is due to a huge number of people like myself who decided we didn’t want anything associated with Microsoft.”

    I didn’t really like Apples because an “end-user” was not allowed access to the machine itself.

    On an IBM-type PC, you can open it up, install accessories, memory, etc., etc.

    On a Mac, to open the case is to… Well. Don’t even think about doing that.

    That whole idea of “not permitted” annoyed me greatly for some reason.

  69. Simon

    Apple isn’t that good either…despite what fans will tell you

  70. JSmith

    And the whole “PC/Mac” dichotomy goes way back to the early days of PC adoption, ca. the mid-80s.

    In the beginning… we had PCs (“personal comouters”), of whatever sort. The early Apples like the II and IIe weren’t a whole lot different from other PCs in that the inner workings weren’t hidden from the user. The break, I believe, came in 1984 when IBM introduced the AT (one reviewer called it a machine “designed by men, for men”) and Apple came out with the Mac, and one of the most famous ads of all time (the “1984” commercial.)

    From that point forward, IBM-type machines were identified with logical, analytical, left-brain types and Macs were coupled with artistic, intuitive, right-brained sorts. Nazis and hippies, in other words. No, you couldn’t crack the case on a Mac, but what right-brained person would want to?

    So while it is indeed true that Microsoft engaged in some highly noncompetitive practices, the benefit of the doubt is nowhere present.

    Apple, in contrast, can offshore as much production as they want without backlash as long as they keep producing those hip, groovy, aware machines for hip, groovy, aware sorts of people.

    Image is everything. As long as the public persona is properly stage-managed, one can do as one damn well pleases.

  71. Simon

    Did anyone knew where Apple designed the Ipods? Just curioius

  72. emsnews

    ALL the computer guys offshored EVERYTHING. Including programming. Remember: they all imported programmers to drop the price of labor here. Then, they simply moved it all offshore. And so here we are: being dumbed down. ALL are doing this because of free f*ing trade.

  73. I’m tired of the “computer guys”.

    Time for some offspring to take over.

    Simple.

    Peace – Ken

    *ps – offspring and spawn are not the same thing!

  74. oh yeah – one other thing, I know that was a “cheap shot”, but the talk today is so depressing, so I “figured”…..why not!

    Silver from the mountain belongs to the mountain. That is what I think.

    It for sure does not belong to Spain. Spain tried to steal the silver.

    How did that work out for Spain may I ask?

  75. Trailin' Pete

    Paul, you argue that government corruption is inseparable from free markets, so free markets aren’t possible? That makes no sense.

    Free markets are the natural state of being. What has made free markets struggle is the incomprehensible amount of corruption, fraud and greed that the people responsible (as in We, the) have allowed to occur while we’ve been busy chasing our illusions of “wealth”, easy (debt driven) lifestyle and refusal to address the truth.
    The death of free markets has everything to do with the deliberate transfer of local power and resources to a federal level and the centralization of the banking system into private hands with no real oversight. What the hell do these events have to do with free enterprise?

    The courts are unbelievably corrupt, so if you are a lawyer, as implied, you should hang your head in shame and quietly slink off the internet. Lawyers are the true and vile scum of the earth, as you undoubtedly know. They are in the courts, legislature and administrative branches…and look at the result.

    Return the governing to the county level where it belongs and let states set general policy rather than the federal government. the feds should mostly be dissolved (ie DOE, education, epa, fda) which would in short order eliminate the financial issues this country faces.
    ΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩΩ
    ELAINE: Small is not an option. China is big and expecting to be bigger. We are in competition with China. We need to shrink our EXTERIOR EMPIRE, not commit group suicide at home by chopping the United States into a confederation.

  76. Hey – OK. Here is something that may be of interest.

    Another site that I frequent “kitco.com” seems to be down.

    Gravity – is it gravity that caused that site to go down. Most doubtful. There is most likely a very logical explanation.

    Hold tight! Ha. ha.

    Paul S. – I tried to find the thread where you mentioned something about defense, but I couldn’t find it. Nonetheless, please, let me thank you here – on this “string”.

    Strings – what a joke!

  77. string theory might have some mathamatical fun associated with it, but otherwise it is a joke. Suspect – just like neutrons!

    I know I’m crazy to say this, but a small itty bitty part of me thinks there might be some “good” lawyers out there!….

    Ha.

  78. Paul S

    Trailin’ Pete: Free markets certainly are possible, and are desirable if the rules of fair and open competition are enforced–and maintained. The simple reality is that not every player in the Free market is going to play by the rules AND that some in the free market system are going to try to “game” the system. Bill Gates does it. The oil companies do it. The banks do it. How the banks “gamed” the system is instructive. There is alot more to the story than this, but the ratings agencies were corrupted so badly, the banks were getting AAA ratings on what should have been rated worse than junk bonds. The SEC was corrupted as well. Christopher Cox, supposedly a big believer in the free markets deserves a looong prison term. I don’t buy their “free” market explanations. The bankers knew ALL along their “investing” was going to crash in a huge fireball. You can’t convince me that they didn’t know the housing bubble would burst eventually. It wasn’t ‘irrational exuberance’, it was greed and Alan Greenspan knew it all along. Their thinking was something like, “We’ll take our profits and make things sooo bad, the sap taxpayer will HAVE to bail us out”. This of course is George W. Bush’s legacy. That and torture. BTW: no, I’m not a lawyer, but Buffalo_Ken has retained me as his lawyer because he doesn’t like real lawyers, I guess. You might want to ask Ken exactly why.

  79. Trailin' Pete

    Most lawyers are the controllers of the serf class…private property was long ago outlawed/seized and the lawyers all played the role of Judas. Anyone with any contact to the legal industry has a good feel for the game and how it’s played.

    Are there any “good”lawyers out there? No. Because of how the system is set and gamed, they can’t function. So the “good” lawyers aren’t lawyers any longer

  80. Paul S – I have not retained you – would never even think of doing as such because it is impossible!

    🙂

    Even so, I appreciated you saying that you would help me with my standing defensively-wise. I’ll try to do likewise.

    Pistol Pete – who are you? I haven’t seen you around here. Its a fair question.

    Peace,
    ken…

  81. plus, pistol pete you must be crazy. You know there are some “good” lawyers out there.

    Study the numbers.

    Obvious.

  82. Trailin' Pete

    Ken, I’m new to the blog and came over after reading a posting on Ticker Forum of one of Elaine’s pieces, which blew me away. For the last week, I’ve been reading some of her prior writings with great interest and found them to be, for the most part, intelligent and insightful. Same with many of the posters comments. What I object to vehemently is when the “free market” get pulled into discussions in what’s wrong with the system. Free markets allowed the system to grow in the first place and free markets, being self focused (self-obsessed?) allowed the current travesty to unfold. Free markets are not “capitalism” as it’s being conducted, nor are they the reason the system is imploding.

    When the dust settles, free markets will begin again from the wreckage and prosper as they have throughout history.

    I am very in tune with the legal business, the courts and the legislature…VERY. I know the game and have been on both sides. Only when one understands the “rules” of the game can one hope to effectively compete. Lawyers are scum and I know many. The “one in a million” can’t function and give up. It’s hopelessly stacked and one only need review court rulings to see the truth. For example, the supreme court should be ruling only from the perspective of constitutionality but they rather usurp the role of the legislature and set social policy. The legislature has taken up the mantle of wealth redistribution and the executive branch, under the emergency powers act conducts clearly unlawful policy outside of the scrutiny of the legislature. Is it coincidence that all of these branches are dominated by lawyers? I found it amusing that ted kennedy was recently knighted by the queen of england and is now SIR TED. The constitution strictly forbids the elected representatives from holding titles of nobility. Just another flagrant disregard of the Constitution.

  83. emsnews

    Japan NEVER had any thing even remotely resembling a ‘free market’. Toyota is beating the hell out of GM and Ford.

    You are right, Pete, about the treason stuff.

    But not right about free trade. Why?

    THERE IS NO FREE TRADE! There was this long period of ‘flood the stupid US with imports while restricting US exports’ period that was deliberate. And now, we will collapse thanks to this. Read all my ‘free trade’ articles slowly and carefully. I spent years, detailing how this system is FAKE and how we were DUPED by people who were getting rich, running the US deeper and deeper into the red.

  84. Pingback: Chinese Fury As Obama Imposes Tire Tariff « Culture of Life News

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